I appreciate another good response. I am certain that there would be some changes for anyone undergoing a major worldview change. I just think there is a lot of overlap between what people value regardless of their religion.
Meaning Without God
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Last: 1 mo ago by Rocag
I was raised in the conservative, fundamentalist evangelical tradition. I was "saved", baptized, and spent the first 40 years of my life earnestly seeking God within those bounds.
Sometime shortly into my 40s I realized that the "still, small voice" was just me, and that my lifelong fears that I was just talking to myself were more likely than the story I'd bought my whole life -- and which had informed, directed, and in many ways dictated my first four decades.
I've been slowly deconstructing my entire worldview, and there is a lot to unpack. I'm still the same guy I was all those years, but I'm pretty disgusted by a lot of the behaviors and attitudes I harbored.
My agnostic atheism has required a few of my deeply held convictions to evolve and change. Now I strive to live in an intellectually consistent way, with a coherent worldview. I've spent more time thinking about me, being, life, etc in the past couple years than I ever did piror. I'm not going to plumb the depths of my psyche here, but the cliffs notes is I have a better appreciation for life, nature, etc today and I have that "peace that passes all understanding" now where i never did while I tried to follow Jesus.
Sometime shortly into my 40s I realized that the "still, small voice" was just me, and that my lifelong fears that I was just talking to myself were more likely than the story I'd bought my whole life -- and which had informed, directed, and in many ways dictated my first four decades.
I've been slowly deconstructing my entire worldview, and there is a lot to unpack. I'm still the same guy I was all those years, but I'm pretty disgusted by a lot of the behaviors and attitudes I harbored.
My agnostic atheism has required a few of my deeply held convictions to evolve and change. Now I strive to live in an intellectually consistent way, with a coherent worldview. I've spent more time thinking about me, being, life, etc in the past couple years than I ever did piror. I'm not going to plumb the depths of my psyche here, but the cliffs notes is I have a better appreciation for life, nature, etc today and I have that "peace that passes all understanding" now where i never did while I tried to follow Jesus.
I think the idea of believing solely in yourself to find the answers within you and to find peace is appealing to some.AggieChemist said:
I was raised in the conservative, fundamentalist evangelical tradition. I was "saved", baptized, and spent the first 40 years of my life earnestly seeking God within those bounds.
Sometime shortly into my 40s I realized that the "still, small voice" was just me, and that my lifelong fears that I was just talking to myself were more likely than the story I'd bought my whole life -- and which had informed, directed, and in many ways dictated my first four decades.
I've been slowly deconstructing my entire worldview, and there is a lot to unpack. I'm still the same guy I was all those years, but I'm pretty disgusted by a lot of the behaviors and attitudes I harbored.
My agnostic atheism has required a few of my deeply held convictions to evolve and change. Now I strive to live in an intellectually consistent way, with a coherent worldview. I've spent more time thinking about me, being, life, etc in the past couple years than I ever did piror. I'm not going to plumb the depths of my psyche here, but the cliffs notes is I have a better appreciation for life, nature, etc today and I have that "peace that passes all understanding" now where i never did while I tried to follow Jesus.
I think some also have unfulfilling experiences early in their 'Christian' experience. And usually its the context they experience it in was not satisfying to the extent the want or felt it would have been. But I think it is a mistake to assign that experience to the whole of Christianity and the only ways to experience Christ. In an extreme sense, its like someone looking at congregants of Westboro Baptist and thinking "that's Christianity??!" and then just dismissing the whole thing.
Christ calls us do die to ourselves and follow him. All we need to do is have an open mind. Sometimes the realization of what it really means to follow him does come until later in ones life and through myriad of paths and often in the smallest but most impactful ways.
I find great comfort in that I don't have to rely on myself and my understanding for everything. In the end, I view my life's purpose as trying to love others as Christ loves us. I fail often, but I do find that when my focus is not on myself at all but on others, that is when I have the most peace.
Similar experience in some ways for me. Same background. Similar questions in my 40s. But a different conclusion for me. I read 1 Kings 13. The majority of the pastors in my life have been less than perfect. My faith in God is as strong as ever, if not stronger. But I realized that the church is composed of people as imperfect as me. I find more direction in the Bible and prayer than preaching at the church.AggieChemist said:
I was raised in the conservative, fundamentalist evangelical tradition. I was "saved", baptized, and spent the first 40 years of my life earnestly seeking God within those bounds.
My path as well. But I understand exactly what AggieChemist is saying.spud1910 said:Similar experience in some ways for me. Same background. Similar questions in my 40s. But a different conclusion for me. I read 1 Kings 13. The majority of the pastors in my life have been less than perfect. My faith in God is as strong as ever, if not stronger. But I realized that the church is composed of people as imperfect as me. I find more direction in the Bible and prayer than preaching at the church.AggieChemist said:
I was raised in the conservative, fundamentalist evangelical tradition. I was "saved", baptized, and spent the first 40 years of my life earnestly seeking God within those bounds.
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We are going to make it. There will be bumps along the way of course, but we will move on.
kurt vonnegut said:Pro Sandy said:
That view point works while life is good. What happens when it doesn't?
What happens when your father in law gets schizophrenia and commits suicide? What a wonderful gift, right?
Yet somehow, at his funeral, we still sang Because He Lives.
Because He lives, I can face tomorrow...
Not the words that come to kind at the funeral for someone who committed suicide, but we could sing it because our existence is more than just the physical world around us. If it is just what's around me, for the very fortunate few, like you, it is grand. For the vast majority, it is a hard life and often tragic. God gives me hope in the midst of tragedy that a sunny day on the golf course can't.
I am beginning to worry that my original post has been construed as a threat or challenge to Christians. Let me just say - I am truly happy that your faith gives you hope and happiness. I've never asked you to abandon your faith or your worldview. My views give me hope and happiness. You can choose to be say 'okay' or you can choose to **** on my views. Based on the responses here, maybe I know what you all have chosen.
And I am sorry about your father in law. I'm happy to explain my views when life is not good, but I don't think that is why you wrote what you wrote.
Is the existence of someone else on this planet that doesn't believe in your God really that threatening to you all?
I don't believe that is the case at all. Christians want you to be saved. They believe that after you die as a non-believer, that you go to hell. So, why wouldn't they want to do everything to save you eternally? It is what God calls us to do, but we are certainly not threatened by your beliefs. I'd recommend you try out the movie, A Case for Heaven. It's a short watch, and I'd really focus on the professor in the story who died and had an experience where he needed to call out to Jesus, but didn't know how to pray. He was given a second chance, quit his job, and is now a Pastor. If that doesn't open your eyes about what you might be facing, then that is your decision. His comment was, hell was exactly what I wanted, but the people there were horrible. Know that love from the Christian is in the form of wanting you to be in eternal bliss and happiness, and not just living a temporary satisfactory life. I pray you are able to discern.
JR Ewing said:
I don't believe that is the case at all. Christians want you to be saved. They believe that after you die as a non-believer, that you go to hell. So, why wouldn't they want to do everything to save you eternally? It is what God calls us to do, but we are certainly not threatened by your beliefs. I'd recommend you try out the movie, A Case for Heaven. It's a short watch, and I'd really focus on the professor in the story who died and had an experience where he needed to call out to Jesus, but didn't know how to pray. He was given a second chance, quit his job, and is now a Pastor. If that doesn't open your eyes about what you might be facing, then that is your decision. His comment was, hell was exactly what I wanted, but the people there were horrible. Know that love from the Christian is in the form of wanting you to be in eternal bliss and happiness, and not just living a temporary satisfactory life. I pray you are able to discern.
And I believe that after we die, nothing happens. I believe Christianity to be false. While there is absolutely value in community and social order and charity and other aspects that comes from Christianity, I see very little positive value in many of the specific beliefs. For many people, I think those specific beliefs are a source of harm and that they make us feel shameful and guilty for things we need not feel guilty or ashamed of. And maybe more importantly, I think those specific ideas serve as a barrier to humility and understanding of our fellow man. If you've convinced yourself that I am a rebel against God Almighty and that I will be tortured for eternity in Hell, then what value is there in empathy toward my views or in consideration to any argument I could make. Before I open my mouth, you already know that I am wrong.
I know that many Christians have evolving beliefs about Hell. But, if Hell awaits non-believers in death, then I want nothing to do with your God.
So, why wouldn't I want to do everything to save you from your Christian reality? Because you are a grown ass man who gets to decide for yourself. I can provide you with my point of view and my arguments, but I won't assume the arrogance required to tell you that you ought to drop all of your beliefs and follow mine.
If you believe that your God gave me free will, then, I hope you will not resent me for using it as I see fit and not pity me for my choices. As you said, it is my decision. I'm a grown ass man also.
For most Christians, I do not doubt their good intentions when they wish for me to become 'saved'. I do believe that this usually comes from a good place. But, for others, I think it comes from a narcissistic impulse to instill their ideology into everyone else. Christianity convinces rational people that unknowable concepts are not only known, but that they unquestionable and that they must be inflicted on everyone else. And Christianity is hardly the only philosophy that plays off this impulse. It is present in our politics and other religions and in our social debates. Humans have evolved in a way where we instinctually oppose diversity of opinion and just simply don't like the fact that some people think differently. When Christians tell me they know God is real and want to save me - I think it is often some mixture of everything I mentioned above. There are usually good intentions there. But, all too often, there is arrogance and close mindedness.
I respect you. And despite my criticisms of Christianity, I absolutely respect your decision to pursue that worldview. The need to insist that 'I am right and you are wrong' infects the left, the right, the religious, and the secular. It is a hinderance. I don't believe it is humanity's best way forward.
That was longer than I wanted, but brevity is not my strong suit.
kurt vonnegut said:JR Ewing said:
I don't believe that is the case at all. Christians want you to be saved. They believe that after you die as a non-believer, that you go to hell. So, why wouldn't they want to do everything to save you eternally? It is what God calls us to do, but we are certainly not threatened by your beliefs. I'd recommend you try out the movie, A Case for Heaven. It's a short watch, and I'd really focus on the professor in the story who died and had an experience where he needed to call out to Jesus, but didn't know how to pray. He was given a second chance, quit his job, and is now a Pastor. If that doesn't open your eyes about what you might be facing, then that is your decision. His comment was, hell was exactly what I wanted, but the people there were horrible. Know that love from the Christian is in the form of wanting you to be in eternal bliss and happiness, and not just living a temporary satisfactory life. I pray you are able to discern.
And I believe that after we die, nothing happens. I believe Christianity to be false. While there is absolutely value in community and social order and charity and other aspects that comes from Christianity, I see very little positive value in many of the specific beliefs. For many people, I think those specific beliefs are a source of harm and that they make us feel shameful and guilty for things we need not feel guilty or ashamed of. And maybe more importantly, I think those specific ideas serve as a barrier to humility and understanding of our fellow man. If you've convinced yourself that I am a rebel against God Almighty and that I will be tortured for eternity in Hell, then what value is there in empathy toward my views or in consideration to any argument I could make. Before I open my mouth, you already know that I am wrong.
I know that many Christians have evolving beliefs about Hell. But, if Hell awaits non-believers in death, then I want nothing to do with your God.
So, why wouldn't I want to do everything to save you from your Christian reality? Because you are a grown ass man who gets to decide for yourself. I can provide you with my point of view and my arguments, but I won't assume the arrogance required to tell you that you ought to drop all of your beliefs and follow mine.
If you believe that your God gave me free will, then, I hope you will not resent me for using it as I see fit and not pity me for my choices. As you said, it is my decision. I'm a grown ass man also.
For most Christians, I do not doubt their good intentions when they wish for me to become 'saved'. I do believe that this usually comes from a good place. But, for others, I think it comes from a narcissistic impulse to instill their ideology into everyone else. Christianity convinces rational people that unknowable concepts are not only known, but that they unquestionable and that they must be inflicted on everyone else. And Christianity is hardly the only philosophy that plays off this impulse. It is present in our politics and other religions and in our social debates. Humans have evolved in a way where we instinctually oppose diversity of opinion and just simply don't like the fact that some people think differently. When Christians tell me they know God is real and want to save me - I think it is often some mixture of everything I mentioned above. There are usually good intentions there. But, all too often, there is arrogance and close mindedness.
I respect you. And despite my criticisms of Christianity, I absolutely respect your decision to pursue that worldview. The need to insist that 'I am right and you are wrong' infects the left, the right, the religious, and the secular. It is a hinderance. I don't believe it is humanity's best way forward.
That was longer than I wanted, but brevity is not my strong suit.
I respect your right to make your own choices, as well. But, as a Christian, I will still pray for you.
Was Jesus resurrected or not? If he was, then Christians simply cannot give your OP any sort of credibility or acknowledgment, you're missing an enormous big picture with potentially eternal consequences to you. So, dont lament that this isnt going where you thought it would for common ground, it just simply cant get there. Spending quality time with your son playing a game you both love, plenty of common ground there.
Those of us that have joined your side by answering 'no' to that question get you and all the inherent problems in realizing morality and meaning are up to each of us to figure out without the confidence of a holy book from the word of God. Its hard to assume youre hypothetically wrong about a fundamental part of your identity, community, and family, and that goes for all of us.
Those of us that have joined your side by answering 'no' to that question get you and all the inherent problems in realizing morality and meaning are up to each of us to figure out without the confidence of a holy book from the word of God. Its hard to assume youre hypothetically wrong about a fundamental part of your identity, community, and family, and that goes for all of us.
JR Ewing said:
I respect your right to make your own choices, as well. But, as a Christian, I will still pray for you.
Like I said above, "I will pray for you" can be a well intentioned expression of love or it can feel more like a "I pray that one day you'll abandon your wrongness and become more like me." I don't know you well enough and am inclined to default to the former.
Out of curiosity - If someone from another religion or worldview were to pray to a different God for you, how would you take the comment? I suspect that if the person was expressing a sincere concern for you and your well being, then you might take the comment positive. Even if you believe in a different God, the person is expressing good intentions. However, if someone of another religion or worldview were to specifically tell you that they are praying for you to abandon Christianity and be saved through some other religion, would you feel differently?
I agree and I don't. Yes, it is hard to assume a hypothetical which requires you to upend your worldview. But, we can do hard things and I think we all do it more than we realize. Just about any worthwhile study of history or anthropology requires that we understand something from a perspective other than our own.
kurt vonnegut said:JR Ewing said:
I respect your right to make your own choices, as well. But, as a Christian, I will still pray for you.
Like I said above, "I will pray for you" can be a well intentioned expression of love or it can feel more like a "I pray that one day you'll abandon your wrongness and become more like me." I don't know you well enough and am inclined to default to the former.
Out of curiosity - If someone from another religion or worldview were to pray to a different God for you, how would you take the comment? I suspect that if the person was expressing a sincere concern for you and your well being, then you might take the comment positive. Even if you believe in a different God, the person is expressing good intentions. However, if someone of another religion or worldview were to specifically tell you that they are praying for you to abandon Christianity and be saved through some other religion, would you feel differently?
I believe that God will give all the opportunity to choose Him or not, so I wouldn't worry about someone from another religion praying to their God for me or take it in a negative manner. Praying for me to abandon Christianity would not be good for them, in my opinion, but they would have to answer to the Almighty for that, as we are all accountable for our actions. My comments to you were absolutely an expression of love, as Christ commands us to love the Lord God almighty with all our hearts and soul and might, and then to love our neighbors as ourselves. Howdy neighbor!
JR Ewing said:
Praying for me to abandon Christianity would not be good for them, in my opinion, but they would have to answer to the Almighty for that, as we are all accountable for our actions.
. . . unless, of course, they have the correct God, and you don't.
kurt vonnegut said:JR Ewing said:
Praying for me to abandon Christianity would not be good for them, in my opinion, but they would have to answer to the Almighty for that, as we are all accountable for our actions.
. . . unless, of course, they have the correct God, and you don't.
Ok, peace be with you.
You say this as if God sends non-believers to Hell.Quote:
I know that many Christians have evolving beliefs about Hell. But, if Hell awaits non-believers in death, then I want nothing to do with your God.
God is a being of pure love, light, and goodness. He is a just God. He cannot abide sin and will not be in its presence. Since we are all sinners, we have no way to reconcile ourselves to God, and would all be bound for Hell if not for the next paragraph.
But God loved us so much, that he sent his son, Jesus, to die once for all. We need only confess with our mouth Jesus Christ is Lord, and believe in our heart God has raised him from the dead in order to be reconciled to God.
He could not have made it any easier for us to be reconciled to Him. He does not wish for anyone to go to Hell. It is, however, true that many will end up there.
What do you really expect Christians to do? They are only following through on what they were instructed to do by their/my Lord in spreading the Word per The Great Commission…Would you have more respect for them as people if they left others, including yourself, "alone" and defied God? You lament about how they are not able to remove their Christian lenses and look at things from your atheist perspective however this is something that just cannot happen once you truly believe there is God…I know this is something you just don't get..I hope you find whatever understanding you're looking for. And in all sincerity peace be with you…
From where I'm sitting, the message I have heard is that I can avoid an all-loving God sending me to eternal torture if I accept that 2,000 years ago God became a human, was killed, and then became alive again, and then went back to Heaven, all to forgive my sins so that I can sin no more.* While it may seem very easy and uncomplicated to you to accept that as obviously true at face value, to me this is akin to accepting Mohammed's story, Hinduism, and the myriad of other supernatural explanations from religions around the world that you likely dismiss more or less out of hand as false.
I think Christianity has amazing things to say about the human condition, how to treat each other, and to create a better world. I also think its supernatural descriptions are, well, bogus, which makes it impossible to get on board with 100% of its teachings. And to tie this to the OP, given that I don't think Christianity (or other religions) are true on face value, how we find meaning in our lives is ultimately up to all of us. Those of you that are religious and find that terrifying, I can understand that, but I promise it's not as scary to those of us that view the world that way.
*I freely admit there is a lot to unpack there from my statement and that many of you would parse or disagree with how I have packaged the core tenant of the resurrection story and how we receive salvation. I would also so say that my descriptions aligns fairly well with my religious instruction.
I think Christianity has amazing things to say about the human condition, how to treat each other, and to create a better world. I also think its supernatural descriptions are, well, bogus, which makes it impossible to get on board with 100% of its teachings. And to tie this to the OP, given that I don't think Christianity (or other religions) are true on face value, how we find meaning in our lives is ultimately up to all of us. Those of you that are religious and find that terrifying, I can understand that, but I promise it's not as scary to those of us that view the world that way.
*I freely admit there is a lot to unpack there from my statement and that many of you would parse or disagree with how I have packaged the core tenant of the resurrection story and how we receive salvation. I would also so say that my descriptions aligns fairly well with my religious instruction.
And you are certainly free to feel however you want to feel about what I said.Malibu said:
From where I'm sitting, the message I have heard is that I can avoid an all-loving God sending me to eternal torture if I accept that 2,000 years ago God became a human, was killed, and then became alive again, and then went back to Heaven, all to forgive my sins so that I can sin no more.* While it may seem very easy and uncomplicated to you to accept that as obviously true at face value, to me this is akin to accepting Mohammed's story, Hinduism, and the myriad of other supernatural explanations from religions around the world that you likely dismiss more or less out of hand as false.
I think Christianity has amazing things to say about the human condition, how to treat each other, and to create a better world. I also think its supernatural descriptions are, well, bogus, which makes it impossible to get on board with 100% of its teachings. And to tie this to the OP, given that I don't think Christianity (or other religions) are true on face value, how we find meaning in our lives is ultimately up to all of us. Those of you that are religious and find that terrifying, I can understand that, but I promise it's not as scary to those of us that view the world that way.
*I freely admit there is a lot to unpack there from my statement and that many of you would parse or disagree with how I have packaged the core tenant of the resurrection story and how we receive salvation. I would also so say that my descriptions aligns fairly well with my religious instruction.
I do fully get this and completely understand where Christians are coming from. For those of us that have had painful personal consequences leaving a faith because we simply don't believe any more (rather than a desire to live a life of sin without consequence), it is frustrating to be judged by friends and family you deeply love and care about. No matter what else I do in life, however much good I try to put in the world, it's ultimately my life's tragedy (to them) that I don't worship God like they do. Furthermore when you have a religion that you ultimately do not think is true be the basis of how a plurality, if not majority, of society is going to make laws and do public policy, it gets even more frustrating.88Warrior said:
What do you really expect Christians to do? They are only following through on what they were instructed to do by their/my Lord in spreading the Word per The Great Commission…Would you have more respect for them as people if they left others, including yourself, "alone" and defied God? You lament about how they are not able to remove their Christian lenses and look at things from your atheist perspective however this is something that just cannot happen once you truly believe there is God…I know this is something you just don't get..I hope you find whatever understanding you're looking for. And in all sincerity peace be with you…
I don't think there's much way around this impasse of belief and non-belief other than to acknowledge it exists, make peace with its existence, and support each other where we can into becoming better people in the absolutely enormous area where our values overlap: helping the poor, being good family members, treating our friends and enemies with kindness, growing "the fruits of the spirit", etc.
Rex Racer said:You say this as if God sends non-believers to Hell.Quote:
I know that many Christians have evolving beliefs about Hell. But, if Hell awaits non-believers in death, then I want nothing to do with your God.
God is a being of pure love, light, and goodness. He is a just God. He cannot abide sin and will not be in its presence. Since we are all sinners, we have no way to reconcile ourselves to God, and would all be bound for Hell if not for the next paragraph.
But God loved us so much, that he sent his son, Jesus, to die once for all. We need only confess with our mouth Jesus Christ is Lord, and believe in our heart God has raised him from the dead in order to be reconciled to God.
He could not have made it any easier for us to be reconciled to Him. He does not wish for anyone to go to Hell. It is, however, true that many will end up there.
This is all written as though there are some laws of existence to which God is 'subject to' rather than 'author of'.
If God wanted to be in the presence of sin, surely He could? To say 'no' is to suggest some larger cosmic law that even God cannot violate.
If God wanted to create a race of people not inherently bound for Hell, surely He could.
If God wanted to forgive us our sins without sending his son, then surely He could. Again, unless there is some cosmic law that God is bound to that says that "Created agents can only be forgiven their sins by a Creator if the Creator should send its son to live amongst those agents and be brutally murdered."
If God wants everyone to go to Heaven, then it will be so. If God wants annhilation instead of eternal torture, it will be so. So yes, if anyone goes to Hell to be tortured for eternity, this is 110% the will of God.
Every rule that exists is God's rule. If that is not the case, then your God is merely a god and not The God.
You're leaving out the part where I said that God is just. He cannot abide sin and will not be in its presence. And why should he? If He did, He would not be just. He would not be any better than you or me. And He most certainly is.kurt vonnegut said:Rex Racer said:You say this as if God sends non-believers to Hell.Quote:
I know that many Christians have evolving beliefs about Hell. But, if Hell awaits non-believers in death, then I want nothing to do with your God.
God is a being of pure love, light, and goodness. He is a just God. He cannot abide sin and will not be in its presence. Since we are all sinners, we have no way to reconcile ourselves to God, and would all be bound for Hell if not for the next paragraph.
But God loved us so much, that he sent his son, Jesus, to die once for all. We need only confess with our mouth Jesus Christ is Lord, and believe in our heart God has raised him from the dead in order to be reconciled to God.
He could not have made it any easier for us to be reconciled to Him. He does not wish for anyone to go to Hell. It is, however, true that many will end up there.
This is all written as though there are some laws of existence to which God is 'subject to' rather than 'author of'.
If God wanted to be in the presence of sin, surely He could? To say 'no' is to suggest some larger cosmic law that even God cannot violate.
If God wanted to create a race of people not inherently bound for Hell, surely He could.
If God wanted to forgive us our sins without sending his son, then surely He could. Again, unless there is some cosmic law that God is bound to that says that "Created agents can only be forgiven their sins by a Creator if the Creator should send its son to live amongst those agents and be brutally murdered."
If God wants everyone to go to Heaven, then it will be so. If God wants annhilation instead of eternal torture, it will be so. So yes, if anyone goes to Hell to be tortured for eternity, this is 110% the will of God.
Every rule that exists is God's rule. If that is not the case, then your God is merely a god and not The God.
I get that you don't believe this, and it does not make me any better than you.
88Warrior said:
What do you really expect Christians to do? They are only following through on what they were instructed to do by their/my Lord in spreading the Word per The Great Commission…Would you have more respect for them as people if they left others, including yourself, "alone" and defied God? You lament about how they are not able to remove their Christian lenses and look at things from your atheist perspective however this is something that just cannot happen once you truly believe there is God…I know this is something you just don't get..I hope you find whatever understanding you're looking for. And in all sincerity peace be with you…
Estimates I've read would say that 110 billion humans have ever lived. Take this with a grain of salt because it assumes some cut-off of when humans became humans. And of those 110 billion, some 8 billion are / were Christian. There are thousands of religions and god and Gods. For tens of thousands of years, humans have pondered their existence and origins. We've invented countless origin stories and explanations, all of which are utterly unprovable and can only be accepted through faith.
At the end of the day, what I cannot understand is why Christians are not permitted to say 'maybe I'm wrong'. I don't mean this as a judgement. Its something I don't understand.
The Christian ideas of mankind as inherently sinful and imperfect would seem to be in agreement with the idea that we are also fallible. . . . yet, that appears not to be the position of Christians on this board. You all appear to have infallible knowledge of the existence and nature of God. Of course, you'll say thats ridiculous and that you don't have infallible knowledge of the existence and nature of God. And then you'll tell me that you know the Truth of God and His commandments and objective morality. And I cannot reconcile your positions. Either you are infallible in your knowledge of God or you 'might be wrong'. I don't see how it can be both.
Who defines what is just? Who is God's God?Rex Racer said:
You're leaving out the part where I said that God is just. He cannot abide sin and will not be in its presence. And why should he? If He did, He would not be just. He would not be any better than you or me. And He most certainly is.
I get that you don't believe this, and it does not make me any better than you.
Malibu said:I do fully get this and completely understand where Christians are coming from. For those of us that have had painful personal consequences leaving a faith because we simply don't believe any more (rather than a desire to live a life of sin without consequence), it is frustrating to be judged by friends and family you deeply love and care about. No matter what else I do in life, however much good I try to put in the world, it's ultimately my life's tragedy (to them) that I don't worship God like they do. Furthermore when you have a religion that you ultimately do not think is true be the basis of how a plurality, if not majority, of society is going to make laws and do public policy, it gets even more frustrating.88Warrior said:
What do you really expect Christians to do? They are only following through on what they were instructed to do by their/my Lord in spreading the Word per The Great Commission…Would you have more respect for them as people if they left others, including yourself, "alone" and defied God? You lament about how they are not able to remove their Christian lenses and look at things from your atheist perspective however this is something that just cannot happen once you truly believe there is God…I know this is something you just don't get..I hope you find whatever understanding you're looking for. And in all sincerity peace be with you…
I don't think there's much way around this impasse of belief and non-belief other than to acknowledge it exists, make peace with its existence, and support each other where we can into becoming better people in the absolutely enormous area where our values overlap: helping the poor, being good family members, treating our friends and enemies with kindness, growing "the fruits of the spirit", etc.
I agree these discussions on here usually end up in a impasse and I don't think my poorly written paragraph and its horrible grammar will convince anyone…lol! Ultimately that's between you and God imho..Just trying to explain why we (Christians) do what we do…I wish you well Malibu!
kurt vonnegut said:Who defines what is just? Who is God's God?Rex Racer said:
You're leaving out the part where I said that God is just. He cannot abide sin and will not be in its presence. And why should he? If He did, He would not be just. He would not be any better than you or me. And He most certainly is.
I get that you don't believe this, and it does not make me any better than you.
God defines what is just. And he has every right to as the Creator.
And even a non-believer knows what is just. Whether they live justly or not.
Some of these posts make me to think about Matthew 7:13-14 The Narrow Way
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
It shows that the majority will not look for nor follow the truth. I'm not posting this in any way to shame or stir up emotions on those who don't believe. It's just sad that so many eyes will not be open to the Way.
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
It shows that the majority will not look for nor follow the truth. I'm not posting this in any way to shame or stir up emotions on those who don't believe. It's just sad that so many eyes will not be open to the Way.
So, if God wanted to be in the presence of sin and remain just, He could. Or he could define the nature of sin differently such that he could be in its presence. Or he could define what is and is not sin.Rex Racer said:God defines what is just. And he has every right to as the Creator.kurt vonnegut said:Who defines what is just? Who is God's God?Rex Racer said:
You're leaving out the part where I said that God is just. He cannot abide sin and will not be in its presence. And why should he? If He did, He would not be just. He would not be any better than you or me. And He most certainly is.
I get that you don't believe this, and it does not make me any better than you.
And even a non-believer knows what is just. Whether they live justly or not.
Again, the point is that God makes all the rules. As soon as you start a sentence with "He [God] cannot. . . . " you've lost me. Why can He not? Can He not, or does He just choose not to? If its the former, then God is not all powerful. If its the latter, then everything, including eternal torture in Hell is unavoidably and directly God's choice.
The following verse is very meaningful to me and profound:
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Are there any atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, that you know that bear good fruit? From where I'm looking, absolutely, and to conclude otherwise is to conclude that the words and lifestyle of anyone that isn't a Christian has no value worth considering. And are there Christians whose life bears bad fruits? Uh...yep.
What I also like about this one is that it is also very similar to a Buddhist teaching about planting good seeds and trying to cultivate those seeds, while weeding out the plants from bad seeds we have planted in our lives, until ultimately our mind is a garden of good fruit. To me, that shows the commonality behind many of the best religious teachings, to the point where I would accept their validity as simply "truth."
So, when Jesus speaks about the narrow way, I don't actually think he is talking about accepting his story as that he is the literal embodiment of God as "the narrow way.' I think he's talking about the path of righteous living. That makes more sense to me especially considering the subsequent verses are about good fruits. Otherwise, it seems like a non-sequitor.
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Are there any atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, that you know that bear good fruit? From where I'm looking, absolutely, and to conclude otherwise is to conclude that the words and lifestyle of anyone that isn't a Christian has no value worth considering. And are there Christians whose life bears bad fruits? Uh...yep.
What I also like about this one is that it is also very similar to a Buddhist teaching about planting good seeds and trying to cultivate those seeds, while weeding out the plants from bad seeds we have planted in our lives, until ultimately our mind is a garden of good fruit. To me, that shows the commonality behind many of the best religious teachings, to the point where I would accept their validity as simply "truth."
So, when Jesus speaks about the narrow way, I don't actually think he is talking about accepting his story as that he is the literal embodiment of God as "the narrow way.' I think he's talking about the path of righteous living. That makes more sense to me especially considering the subsequent verses are about good fruits. Otherwise, it seems like a non-sequitor.
Agilaw said:
Some of these posts make me to think about Matthew 7:13-14 The Narrow Way
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
It shows that the majority will not look for nor follow the truth. I'm not posting this in any way to shame or stir up emotions on those who don't believe. It's just sad that so many eyes will not be open to the Way.
God creates a narrow path of salvation.
Most people will not find the way and will find destruction.
Conclusion: God is perfect????
kurt vonnegut said:Agilaw said:
Some of these posts make me to think about Matthew 7:13-14 The Narrow Way
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
It shows that the majority will not look for nor follow the truth. I'm not posting this in any way to shame or stir up emotions on those who don't believe. It's just sad that so many eyes will not be open to the Way.
God creates a narrow path of salvation.
Most people will not find the way and will find destruction.
Conclusion: God is perfect????
Yes, God is perfect. But God is also just and the only way to salvation is through the perfect sacrifice of Christ on the cross for all.
kurt vonnegut said:88Warrior said:
What do you really expect Christians to do? They are only following through on what they were instructed to do by their/my Lord in spreading the Word per The Great Commission…Would you have more respect for them as people if they left others, including yourself, "alone" and defied God? You lament about how they are not able to remove their Christian lenses and look at things from your atheist perspective however this is something that just cannot happen once you truly believe there is God…I know this is something you just don't get..I hope you find whatever understanding you're looking for. And in all sincerity peace be with you…
Estimates I've read would say that 110 billion humans have ever lived. Take this with a grain of salt because it assumes some cut-off of when humans became humans. And of those 110 billion, some 8 billion are / were Christian. There are thousands of religions and god and Gods. For tens of thousands of years, humans have pondered their existence and origins. We've invented countless origin stories and explanations, all of which are utterly unprovable and can only be accepted through faith.
At the end of the day, what I cannot understand is why Christians are not permitted to say 'maybe I'm wrong'. I don't mean this as a judgement. Its something I don't understand.
The Christian ideas of mankind as inherently sinful and imperfect would seem to be in agreement with the idea that we are also fallible. . . . yet, that appears not to be the position of Christians on this board. You all appear to have infallible knowledge of the existence and nature of God. Of course, you'll say thats ridiculous and that you don't have infallible knowledge of the existence and nature of God. And then you'll tell me that you know the Truth of God and His commandments and objective morality. And I cannot reconcile your positions. Either you are infallible in your knowledge of God or you 'might be wrong'. I don't see how it can be both.
Isn't the bolded your own utterly unprovable, accepted through faith assumption / presupposition? You must assume facts about reality (that none of these beings exist, or communicate with us) for it to be true, no?
We've been through this all before but why are you, Kurt, the standard of 'justice', in so much as if God doesn't reveal Himself in The Right Way (TRW) for you to recognize Him, some part of His character must be invalid or inadequate (couldn't he create you as sinless, or overlook your ignorance, etc.)? If he doesn't utilize TRW why does that mean He doesn't exist or hasn't communicated with others?
You typically build a case for why you, personally, don't believe but ignore why Christians do: we have experienced these things. Who would say, 'maybe I'm wrong' if that's the case?
To be fair, Christians believe Jesus died and rose again. That's a very bold claim that, if true, would give Christians plenty of reason to be confident in telling people they are wrong. And no, despite what some shoddy scholars tried to say, there really is no parallel to Jesus in mythology or other religions.
Conversely, Christianity would have less than zero ground to stand on if it could ever be proven Jesus did not rise from the dead. That knife cuts both ways. Problem is there is no way to confirm He rose or didn't with 100% certainty.
Conversely, Christianity would have less than zero ground to stand on if it could ever be proven Jesus did not rise from the dead. That knife cuts both ways. Problem is there is no way to confirm He rose or didn't with 100% certainty.
You and I have been through all this before, but I was responding to you, was I? I don't know JR and don't think that they post as much as your or I. So maybe, this is a new discussion for JR.AGC said:kurt vonnegut said:88Warrior said:
What do you really expect Christians to do? They are only following through on what they were instructed to do by their/my Lord in spreading the Word per The Great Commission…Would you have more respect for them as people if they left others, including yourself, "alone" and defied God? You lament about how they are not able to remove their Christian lenses and look at things from your atheist perspective however this is something that just cannot happen once you truly believe there is God…I know this is something you just don't get..I hope you find whatever understanding you're looking for. And in all sincerity peace be with you…
Estimates I've read would say that 110 billion humans have ever lived. Take this with a grain of salt because it assumes some cut-off of when humans became humans. And of those 110 billion, some 8 billion are / were Christian. There are thousands of religions and god and Gods. For tens of thousands of years, humans have pondered their existence and origins. We've invented countless origin stories and explanations, all of which are utterly unprovable and can only be accepted through faith.
At the end of the day, what I cannot understand is why Christians are not permitted to say 'maybe I'm wrong'. I don't mean this as a judgement. Its something I don't understand.
The Christian ideas of mankind as inherently sinful and imperfect would seem to be in agreement with the idea that we are also fallible. . . . yet, that appears not to be the position of Christians on this board. You all appear to have infallible knowledge of the existence and nature of God. Of course, you'll say thats ridiculous and that you don't have infallible knowledge of the existence and nature of God. And then you'll tell me that you know the Truth of God and His commandments and objective morality. And I cannot reconcile your positions. Either you are infallible in your knowledge of God or you 'might be wrong'. I don't see how it can be both.
Isn't the bolded your own utterly unprovable, accepted through faith assumption / presupposition? You must assume facts about reality (that none of these beings exist, or communicate with us) for it to be true, no?
We've been through this all before but why are you, Kurt, the standard of 'justice', in so much as if God doesn't reveal Himself in The Right Way (TRW) for you to recognize Him, some part of His character must be invalid or inadequate (couldn't he create you as sinless, or overlook your ignorance, etc.)? If he doesn't utilize TRW why does that mean He doesn't exist or hasn't communicated with others?
You typically build a case for why you, personally, don't believe but ignore why Christians do: we have experienced these things. Who would say, 'maybe I'm wrong' if that's the case?
Remove everything after the comma in the bolded sentence. You are correct that is my own bias. But, I think the rest of the argument stands just fine without it. Which is that because humans have created thousands of false religions and false gods, I think we ought to act with some level of humility in discussing what we know to be factually true when it comes to the subject. You are welcome to disagree, I'm just stating my position and why it is my position.
kurt vonnegut said:You and I have been through all this before, but I was responding to you, was I? I don't know JR and don't think that they post as much as your or I. So maybe, this is a new discussion for JR.AGC said:kurt vonnegut said:88Warrior said:
What do you really expect Christians to do? They are only following through on what they were instructed to do by their/my Lord in spreading the Word per The Great Commission…Would you have more respect for them as people if they left others, including yourself, "alone" and defied God? You lament about how they are not able to remove their Christian lenses and look at things from your atheist perspective however this is something that just cannot happen once you truly believe there is God…I know this is something you just don't get..I hope you find whatever understanding you're looking for. And in all sincerity peace be with you…
Estimates I've read would say that 110 billion humans have ever lived. Take this with a grain of salt because it assumes some cut-off of when humans became humans. And of those 110 billion, some 8 billion are / were Christian. There are thousands of religions and god and Gods. For tens of thousands of years, humans have pondered their existence and origins. We've invented countless origin stories and explanations, all of which are utterly unprovable and can only be accepted through faith.
At the end of the day, what I cannot understand is why Christians are not permitted to say 'maybe I'm wrong'. I don't mean this as a judgement. Its something I don't understand.
The Christian ideas of mankind as inherently sinful and imperfect would seem to be in agreement with the idea that we are also fallible. . . . yet, that appears not to be the position of Christians on this board. You all appear to have infallible knowledge of the existence and nature of God. Of course, you'll say thats ridiculous and that you don't have infallible knowledge of the existence and nature of God. And then you'll tell me that you know the Truth of God and His commandments and objective morality. And I cannot reconcile your positions. Either you are infallible in your knowledge of God or you 'might be wrong'. I don't see how it can be both.
Isn't the bolded your own utterly unprovable, accepted through faith assumption / presupposition? You must assume facts about reality (that none of these beings exist, or communicate with us) for it to be true, no?
We've been through this all before but why are you, Kurt, the standard of 'justice', in so much as if God doesn't reveal Himself in The Right Way (TRW) for you to recognize Him, some part of His character must be invalid or inadequate (couldn't he create you as sinless, or overlook your ignorance, etc.)? If he doesn't utilize TRW why does that mean He doesn't exist or hasn't communicated with others?
You typically build a case for why you, personally, don't believe but ignore why Christians do: we have experienced these things. Who would say, 'maybe I'm wrong' if that's the case?
Remove everything after the comma in the bolded sentence. You are correct that is my own bias. But, I think the rest of the argument stands just fine without it. Which is that because humans have created thousands of false religions and false gods, I think we ought to act with some level of humility in discussing what we know to be factually true when it comes to the subject. You are welcome to disagree, I'm just stating my position and why it is my position.
Everything before the comma is just as problematic; you accept your own presuppositions as fact without any evidence. So what if there are a bunch of religions and gods? Please prove each and every one was invented by humans.
And why would the existence of multiple stories negate all of them? That's not even how basic history works - two sides of the same war have different tales and both may have truth in them, one truer than the other. It doesn't make both narratives wrong.
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