So long M16. Army intros the XM7 by Sig Sauer

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techno-ag
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10:19p, 4/26/24
AG
https://trendydigests.com/2024/04/25/the-dawn-of-the-xm7-u-s-armys-transition-from-the-legendary-m16-series/

Quote:
After over five decades of faithful service, the M16 series, an icon of American military might and a direct descendant of the AR-15 designed by Eugene Stoner will be succeeded by Sig Sauer's advanced XM7 rifle. The M16, first introduced in 1964, has been the most-produced 5.56x45mm weapon, marking a significant chapter in the annals of U.S. military history. The latest variant, the M16A4, known for its three-round burst feature, will soon yield to the cutting-edge design of the XM7, a testament to the relentless pursuit of small arms excellence.
…
Sig Sauer's XM7 and XM250 promise a significant capability increase over their predecessors, firing a common 6.8mm ammunition that delivers greater effectiveness against current and emergent threats. The new round, an intermediate caliber, outperforms both the 5.56mm and 7.62mm in terms of accuracy and power, especially at extended ranges - a critical factor in modern combat scenarios where adversaries have improved their body armor.
So it looks like a heavier caliber was the impetus behind this change. Better stopping power, better body armor penetration.

Looks like Sig is the main supplier of military handguns too. They replaced Beretta with the Sig M17 9mm.

Weapons procurement, at this level anyway, appears to be free of some of the turmoil we see elsewhere. Unless there's some political stuff not hitting the news. Any of you guys with military connections know anything?
Buy a man eat fish, he day, teach fish man, to a lifetime.

- Joe Biden

I think that, to be very honest with you, I do believe that we should have rightly believed, but we certainly believe that certain issues are just settled.

- Kamala Harris
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TexasRebel
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10:27p, 4/26/24
AG
So

Surplus to the public?
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Space-Tech
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In reply to techno-ag • 10:29p, 4/26/24
techno-ag said:
Weapons procurement, at this level anyway, appears to be free of some of the turmoil we see elsewhere. Unless there's some political stuff not hitting the news. Any of you guys with military connections know anything?

The Army has been trying to the replace the M16 since the 1980's when it started the ACR program. They followed with the XM29 program in the 1990's and the XM8 program in the 2000's. The XM-7 is a product of the NGSW program which was started in 2017 which itself kicked off based a fielding study in 2010.

The culmination of this program has been anything but free from turmoil.
PERSON - WOMAN - MAN - CAMERA - TV
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cuz-i-can
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In reply to TexasRebel • 10:30p, 4/26/24
AG
Market will be flooded...
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samurai_science
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10:34p, 4/26/24
This has been going on a long time and you can watch plenty of reviews about this weapon on youtube. The civ version of this rifle is crazy expensive.
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techno-ag
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In reply to Space-Tech • 10:36p, 4/26/24
AG
Space-Tech said:
techno-ag said:
Weapons procurement, at this level anyway, appears to be free of some of the turmoil we see elsewhere. Unless there's some political stuff not hitting the news. Any of you guys with military connections know anything?

The Army has been trying to the replace the M16 since the 1980's when it started the ACR program. They followed with the XM29 program in the 1990's and the XM8 program in the 2000's. The XM-7 is a product of the NGSW program which was started in 2017 which itself kicked off based a fielding study in 2010.

The culmination of this program has been anything but free from turmoil.
I guess I was thinking more in terms of union kickbacks and congressional bickering. I know the military seems to go through some disagreements on small arms. I recall a lot of arguments over the 45 vs 9mm. Still going on to a certain extent.
Buy a man eat fish, he day, teach fish man, to a lifetime.

- Joe Biden

I think that, to be very honest with you, I do believe that we should have rightly believed, but we certainly believe that certain issues are just settled.

- Kamala Harris
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WestGalvestonAggie
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In reply to samurai_science • 11:07p, 4/26/24
samurai_science said:
This has been going on a long time and you can watch plenty of reviews about this weapon on youtube. The civ version of this rifle is crazy expensive.
About 5 grand. I'll happily take an M4 instead, thank you very much!
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WestGalvestonAggie
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In reply to WestGalvestonAggie • 11:08p, 4/26/24
WestGalvestonAggie said:
samurai_science said:
NM
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BurnetAggie99
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11:57p, 4/26/24
The real question is what do the Marines think of this rifle
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Deus Vult
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In reply to TexasRebel • 1:22a, 4/27/24
TexasRebel said:
So

Surplus to the public?

Biden will probably ship them all to the Taliban or Iran.
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51
C@LAg
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1:28a, 4/27/24
govt special edition microdot tracers in these guns.

a few months down the line.... atf is busting down all your doors.
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Burnsey
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1:33a, 4/27/24
AG
I want it so bad!
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TexasRebel
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In reply to C@LAg • 2:24a, 4/27/24
AG
Trackers require power, and are quite readily defeated by Faraday cages.
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Anubus
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In reply to TexasRebel • 5:30a, 4/27/24
TexasRebel said:
So

Surplus to the public?
Texit?
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nortex97
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In reply to Burnsey • 6:26a, 4/27/24
AG
Burnsey said:
I want it so bad!
Why, though? The ammo for it is also exorbitantly expensive.

It will be a novelty imho in the civilian market for quite a while. The AR market is great just because it's a product produced in so many different formats/ways with some interchangeable parts by so many. This Sig is…the opposite of that.

Kinda amusingly on a related military-rifle note, the Russians (have been for a while) getting sniper rifles chambered in .308 Winchester.

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MouthBQ98
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7:14a, 4/27/24
AG
Note: this is intended for front line combat units. Most other units are expected to go on using the M4 Platform for the foreseeable future.

This will be akin to the M1 Garand and M1 carbine mix in WWII. Logistics, rear area, maintenance, and other forces unlikely to see direct combat in most scenarios will continue to use the M4 as an already available and proven system that already has a support base.
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Gunny456
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In reply to nortex97 • 7:27a, 4/27/24
AG
What? You mean not in 6.5 "Creed" or "Grendel"? How will they ever hit anything?
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fixer
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7:42a, 4/27/24
Hopefully these don't have the design flaws the pistol did.
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12th Man
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In reply to BurnetAggie99 • 7:43a, 4/27/24
AG
BurnetAggie99 said:
The real question is what do the Marines think of this rifle


It can click a bayonet: the Marines are jiggy wit it.
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GeorgiAg
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7:52a, 4/27/24
AG
No one needs these weapons of war!

… except me. Last gun I bought was an Sig MCX Spear. But I got it in 556. Loud AF. I have a suppressor in ATF jail for it currently.
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nortex97
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In reply to GeorgiAg • 8:12a, 4/27/24
AG
The 1939 NFA is entirely unconstitutional.
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GeorgiAg
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In reply to nortex97 • 8:20a, 4/27/24
AG
nortex97 said:
The 1939 NFA is entirely unconstitutional.


Amen. I was literally thinking this morning about how awesome it would be to be the District Court judge that could issue that ruling.
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BassCowboy33
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In reply to techno-ag • 8:23a, 4/27/24
techno-ag said:
https://trendydigests.com/2024/04/25/the-dawn-of-the-xm7-u-s-armys-transition-from-the-legendary-m16-series/

Quote:
After over five decades of faithful service, the M16 series, an icon of American military might and a direct descendant of the AR-15 designed by Eugene Stoner will be succeeded by Sig Sauer's advanced XM7 rifle. The M16, first introduced in 1964, has been the most-produced 5.56x45mm weapon, marking a significant chapter in the annals of U.S. military history. The latest variant, the M16A4, known for its three-round burst feature, will soon yield to the cutting-edge design of the XM7, a testament to the relentless pursuit of small arms excellence.
…
Sig Sauer's XM7 and XM250 promise a significant capability increase over their predecessors, firing a common 6.8mm ammunition that delivers greater effectiveness against current and emergent threats. The new round, an intermediate caliber, outperforms both the 5.56mm and 7.62mm in terms of accuracy and power, especially at extended ranges - a critical factor in modern combat scenarios where adversaries have improved their body armor.
So it looks like a heavier caliber was the impetus behind this change. Better stopping power, better body armor penetration.

Looks like Sig is the main supplier of military handguns too. They replaced Beretta with the Sig M17 9mm.

Weapons procurement, at this level anyway, appears to be free of some of the turmoil we see elsewhere. Unless there's some political stuff not hitting the news. Any of you guys with military connections know anything?
By the time I went in in '10, the M16 was already on the outs. I didn't even know it was still being used by any of the branches. The M4 carbine is the superior weapon.
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GeorgiAg
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8:28a, 4/27/24
AG
I like the gun. It does have less recoil than an AR and you can re-acquire the target quickly. I also love that there is no buffer tube and the folding stock. Shot it without the stock a few times just for the hell of it and did pretty well.

The jury is still out but this may make a run for the CZ Scorpion as my favorite rifle. I think a lot of the reason I like the CZ is because mine is 9mm. Cheaper ammo, folding stock and less recoil. This has two of those.

Group coming over and we're gonna shoot tomorrow.
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bobbranco
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In reply to GeorgiAg • 8:37a, 4/27/24
AG
GeorgiAg said:
nortex97 said:
The 1939 NFA is entirely unconstitutional.


Amen. I was literally thinking this morning about how awesome it would be to be the District Court judge that could issue that ruling.
After your vote for Biden, then vigorously defending that vote, I don't believe anything you post.
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techno-ag
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In reply to BassCowboy33 • 8:44a, 4/27/24
AG
BassCowboy33 said:
techno-ag said:
https://trendydigests.com/2024/04/25/the-dawn-of-the-xm7-u-s-armys-transition-from-the-legendary-m16-series/

Quote:
After over five decades of faithful service, the M16 series, an icon of American military might and a direct descendant of the AR-15 designed by Eugene Stoner will be succeeded by Sig Sauer's advanced XM7 rifle. The M16, first introduced in 1964, has been the most-produced 5.56x45mm weapon, marking a significant chapter in the annals of U.S. military history. The latest variant, the M16A4, known for its three-round burst feature, will soon yield to the cutting-edge design of the XM7, a testament to the relentless pursuit of small arms excellence.
…
Sig Sauer's XM7 and XM250 promise a significant capability increase over their predecessors, firing a common 6.8mm ammunition that delivers greater effectiveness against current and emergent threats. The new round, an intermediate caliber, outperforms both the 5.56mm and 7.62mm in terms of accuracy and power, especially at extended ranges - a critical factor in modern combat scenarios where adversaries have improved their body armor.
So it looks like a heavier caliber was the impetus behind this change. Better stopping power, better body armor penetration.

Looks like Sig is the main supplier of military handguns too. They replaced Beretta with the Sig M17 9mm.

Weapons procurement, at this level anyway, appears to be free of some of the turmoil we see elsewhere. Unless there's some political stuff not hitting the news. Any of you guys with military connections know anything?
By the time I went in in '10, the M16 was already on the outs. I didn't even know it was still being used by any of the branches. The M4 carbine is the superior weapon.
Thank you for your service.
Buy a man eat fish, he day, teach fish man, to a lifetime.

- Joe Biden

I think that, to be very honest with you, I do believe that we should have rightly believed, but we certainly believe that certain issues are just settled.

- Kamala Harris
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nortex97
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In reply to techno-ag • 9:08a, 4/27/24
AG
techno-ag said:
Space-Tech said:
techno-ag said:
Weapons procurement, at this level anyway, appears to be free of some of the turmoil we see elsewhere. Unless there's some political stuff not hitting the news. Any of you guys with military connections know anything?

The Army has been trying to the replace the M16 since the 1980's when it started the ACR program. They followed with the XM29 program in the 1990's and the XM8 program in the 2000's. The XM-7 is a product of the NGSW program which was started in 2017 which itself kicked off based a fielding study in 2010.

The culmination of this program has been anything but free from turmoil.
I guess I was thinking more in terms of union kickbacks and congressional bickering. I know the military seems to go through some disagreements on small arms. I recall a lot of arguments over the 45 vs 9mm. Still going on to a certain extent.
And they have the nato-standardized 5.7 which is almost inarguably better in almost all applications the 9mm is used but have never gone that route.

On the handgun side the P320/Sig products are maligned but really, they make good stuff and there's not much wrong with them. The army's a big outfit and if you factor in how many, err, sometimes low IQ guys/gals toy around/abuse various weapons it's inevitable there will be some bad headlines at some point. Glock had a strongish ability to win the handgun competition but blew it by not really going 'all in' on the modular solution the army wanted, which is more than just a little ironic to me.

The 45 vs. 9 is an ancient debate at this point, but also sort of funny the army flat out refused to consider an 'updated' 9mm from Beretta because they…are so widely detested.
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Ulysses90
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9:57a, 4/27/24
AG
The XM7 (Next Generation Squad Weapon) raises a lot of questions about how the requirement was derived and the combat modeling that supported the decision.

  • Was there data to suggest that 5.56mm hits were not putting down the bad guys? The Marine Corps (and as far as I know the Army also) found no evidence of this over the past 20 year albeit they weren't shooting a enemy wearing plate body armor: "It's not the round, it's the shooter. If we hit them [enemy combatants], we put them down. The problem is we're not very good at hitting moving targets" (Johnson, 2007)." -Gen James Conway

  • Historically ~90% of small arms engagements have taken place at distances of <300m. Is there evidence to suggest that this is going to change abruptly to require that every infantryman be equipped with a 6.8mm weapon that is lethal out to 1000m (assuming that the shooter can hit the target)?

  • Since the basic ammo load if a rifleman drops from 210 rounds (seven 30 round magazines of 5.56mm) to 140 rounds (seven 20 round magazines of 6.8mm), how do you achieve a 50% improvement in accuracy to offset the 33% reduction in ammo?

  • Does Army doctrine on the use of small arms fire for suppression change when ammunition quantities carried by soldiers are reduced by 33%?

  • If the $10k NGSW Fire Control System (a.k.a. the optic) is going to provide the magic that allows a rifleman to increase accuracy (the ability to hit the target) by 50%, how much would it improve the performance of riflemen using the M4 Carbine?

After the decision to move to the 6.8mm cartridge, the Army has acknowledged that the surface danger zone is significantly greater than the 3600m for 5.56mm and 7.62mm NATO cartridges. They won't say exactly what the SDZ is for a 6.8mm cartridge but it is probably closer to the 7200m distance of the .50 BMG. This means that approximately 80% of the small arms ranges on Army installations cannot support training with the 6.8mm cartridge because their SDZs are too short.

Furthermore, the 6.8mm Sig will blow holes through standard AR500 plate steel targets at close to medium distances. It will also penetrate completely through the standard target protection berms for pop-up targets which means that the 6.8mm Sig will cause significant damage to existing range infrastructure if it is used in training.

Consequently, the Army has decided to field a reduced charge 6.8mm training cartridge with different ballistic characteristics from the 6.8mm cartridge that will be used in combat. What's not to like?
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Ag_of_08
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In reply to bobbranco • 10:26a, 4/27/24
AG
bobbranco said:
GeorgiAg said:
nortex97 said:
The 1939 NFA is entirely unconstitutional.


Amen. I was literally thinking this morning about how awesome it would be to be the District Court judge that could issue that ruling.
After your vote for Biden, then vigorously defending that vote, I don't believe anything you post.


Trump is pro NFA, pro gun control.... this is not a topic most of this board needs to yell "but Biden" on after their candidate ofnchoice was extremely anti-2a
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YouBet
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In reply to Ulysses90 • 10:36a, 4/27/24
AG
Will they require a charger cord to be plugged for power after a couple of shots? Or do they have a battery? This was a failed decision if these guns aren't fully electric.
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Ulysses90
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In reply to YouBet • 11:34a, 4/27/24
AG
The digital FCS isn't going to run on just sunlight. They will probably stack the extra batteries on the robot mule that will carry the extra batteries for IVAS.
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deddog
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In reply to Ag_of_08 • 11:37a, 4/27/24
AG
Ag_of_08 said:
bobbranco said:
GeorgiAg said:
nortex97 said:
The 1939 NFA is entirely unconstitutional.


Amen. I was literally thinking this morning about how awesome it would be to be the District Court judge that could issue that ruling.
After your vote for Biden, then vigorously defending that vote, I don't believe anything you post.


Trump is pro NFA, pro gun control.... this is not a topic most of this board needs to yell "but Biden" on after their candidate ofnchoice was extremely anti-2a


And yet the ATF only came out with the brace rule after Trump was gone. Coincidence I'm sure.

Just like Putin invading Ukraine whenever a Democrat is in power.
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74OA
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11:43a, 4/27/24
AG
Good extended discussion on the new rifle and ammo HERE.

The new sight is the revolutionary component. OPTIC
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Line Ate Member
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In reply to TexasRebel • 12:02p, 4/27/24
AG
TexasRebel said:
So

Surplus to the public?
More likely Ukraine is about to get a huge shipment of M16 to then sell to terrorists or someone else
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AgBQ-00
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In reply to BurnetAggie99 • 12:28p, 4/27/24
AG
BurnetAggie99 said:
The real question is what do the Marines think of this rifle


They won't know for another decade. They have to break all their current stock of rifles
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