You can post about their inept front office, and I agree but also...

https://craftednba.com/player-traits/sieve

Worst defensive player in the NBA.

Obviously today's game is more about offense than defense, but I'd prefer to not have the worst defender in the league on the Spurs. Especially because defense is related in many ways to effort. Even if you aren't a natural defensive stopper, with a bit of effort you should be able to avoid the label of worst defender in the NBA.

This is why I say he's a loser, guys who don't give effort don't help you win.

AggieEP said:

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You can post about their inept front office, and I agree but also...

https://craftednba.com/player-traits/sieve

Worst defensive player in the NBA.

Obviously today's game is more about offense than defense, but I'd prefer to not have the worst defender in the league on the Spurs. Especially because defense is related in many ways to effort. Even if you aren't a natural defensive stopper, with a bit of effort you should be able to avoid the label of worst defender in the NBA.

This is why I say he's a loser, guys who don't give effort don't help you win.

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I liked Crafted a lot. However, in their sieve formula, they take into account his defensive rebounding and his block percentage. That tanks his value a ton, because he doesn't rebound and is generally the shortest player on the court.

However, in his defense with that metric, he has decent enough numbers on the parts that would matter to us.



Deflections - obviously causing a deflection of the ball on defense. 69th percentile is pretty solid. He's no Caruso, but it shows he is active on that end of the court and likely decent at playing passing lanes.

Regularized Adjusted Defensive Turnovers - 63rd percentile. Top two are Caruso and Thybulle - extremely disruptive defenders. So he's in a good spot there.

Being at 69th percentile on deflections and 63rd percentile on RADTOV would be counter to your point of him being a loser that doesn't give effort. I think he is just short, thin, and easy to get picked on, especially as PGs have gotten bigger.

Bad at rebounding, blocks, etc. We knew this and don't really care.

Not a versatile defender - yeah, you are't often going to throw him on your SF or PF. Again, that is fine. Same as Tony Parker.

Relative Personal Fouls - elite at this. Isn't fouling when he shouldn't. That's a great thing. He has committed 38 shooting fouls in 50 games this year.

No stats are going to show him as an impactful defender because he is not. But if he can be disruptive in the passing lanes and limits fouls, that's a plus.

If we get him, we need to find our Danny Green or Bruce Bowen. Or both.

Using crafted's player stat sorter, I filtered down to just point guards under 28yo averaging over 5apg. For some reason, they don't have the numbers from Luka Doncic in there, but that's irrelevant since he isn't available anyway.

1. Tyrese Haliburton (Also a Sieve)
2. Trae Young
3. Ja Morant (Negative CraftedDPM, lower in deflections, raDTOV, and fPF)
4. LaMelo (high deflections and raDTOV, but negative CraftedDPM)
5. Tyus Jones (Negative crafted DPM, with similar stats as Trae)
6. SGA - barely positive Crafted DPM, despite being a very good defender
7. Brunson - Sieve
8.. Jamal Murray - Negative craftedDPM, despite being a good deender
9. Maxey - Sieve
10. DAngelo Russell - Sieve
11. Darius Garland - negative CraftedDPM
12. Tyus Jones - negative CraftedDPM
13. DeAaron Fox - Sieve
14. DeJounte Murray - Sieve
15. Coby White - negative CraftedDPM
16. Anfernee Simons - Sieve

So that is it. That is the entire list. Who do you prefer at PG? I would obviously take SGA, Halliburton, and Jamal Murray (assuming he could stay healthy. I think I would take Darius Garland over Trae, too, but Garland will never be an All-NBA player like Trae, imo. LaMelo is bigger and more disruptive on defense, but he is hurt all the time. And he isn't as good of a passer or scorer.

I don't think Cleveland gives us Garland if we offer the three ATL picks plus one more. But I think that Atlanta does. I think OKC and Indiana hang up on us, even if we offer a half dozen firsts for Haliburton or SGA.


So which PG that is available for 4 firsts would be an upgrade to Tre Jones?


Derrick White is older than ideal, but he is showing he would be ideal for us. But he is ideal for Boston, and they aren't going to give him back for the ATL picks unless something insane happens during the playoffs. And he is just at 4.7APG.

Maybe Memphis would move JaMorant, but his 3pt shot is awful (Career .318, this year .275, last year .307) - also possibly a crackhead.

I love Jamal Murray, but I don't see Denver giving him up. He is a great compliment to Jokic and would be a great compliment to Wemby in the same way.

I would make the call on Darius Garland, but I don't think Cleveland jumps at that with as well as they are playing.

The only PG in the NBA to get the Best Defender Tag on Crafted is Alex Caruso. I would LOVE to have Alex on our team, but I don't think his role is as a lead point guard. He's your glue guy, plus he is hurt a lot.

I don't think Gary Payton is out there, and I don't think there is a Gary Payton in this draft. And go look at how many rings point guards like Tony Parker and Steph Curry have vs Gary Payton.


I don't think having Trae is a death sentence to the Spurs defense, but we would definitely need to focus on acquiring better defensive wings or hope that somehow Vassell turns into the defender we thought he would be when we took him. Maybe Cissoko can become an NBA player, because I think his passing is pretty solid and his defense is disruptive. But he can't shoot.

Pop hasn't shown he cares about perimeter defense in a good five years now. Why is anyone worried about Trae sucking at it?

About 4min in they start talking about his ability to throw lobs off the PnR or from back screens.

Then goes on to how he uses a floater as a scoring and passing option.

WE are talking about Wemby's fit, but I think Trae + Sochan PnR could be super crazy good.

I've not gone down the rabbit hole of the formulas here, but if you get picked on all game, wouldn't that statistically increase the amount of chances you have for deflections? I'd be curious if someone (with way more time than I have) tracks this. Yes he may rate as average in number of deflections, but maybe that's because he has twice the opportunities of an elite defender like Thybulle or Caruso. Kind of the, even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes theory.

I also get that he's small, but to essentially not ever rebound the ball is concerning. Even more concerning because when he first entered the league he was averaging around 4 rebounds a game, and now he's down to 2.7 despite playing more minutes. Among players averaging 30 minutes a game, he has the lowest RPG. There are other small guys in the NBA, and again he's the worst in the league. (Even old Steph Curry is still at 4 RPG) To me that's an effort thing.

He also leads the league in turnovers. Yes he handles the ball a lot and has a high usage rate, but so do other guys and he leads the league. (Led the league last year as well)

Final point here, the Spurs are definitely a better team with Trae Young than without him, he'd force some dilemmas with the defense for sure, and should help run the pick and roll with Wemby. I do not dispute this. However, the question is how much better are the Spurs, and is the cost worth the upgrade?

For me, this is an easy question, they would not be so much improved as to make it the kind of no brainer move that you make when you push your chips in. Sure if Atlanta is just giving him away, you take him. But if the cost is those Atlanta picks + other assets, I don't think it moves the needle enough to do it.

For me, I'd be checking on all of the teams that might have an interest in tanking and seeing if I could pull the few good players they do have in exchange for draft capital. For instance, I wish we'd kick the tires on Coby White in Chicago. Offer them their own pick back plus the Charlotte pick and one of the Atlanta picks for him. Take back a bad contract (Vucevic maybe) as well if needed to help clear their books. That solves the PG problem immediately and Chicago can start tanking for real and sell off the rest of their assets.

Then I'd talk to Toronto about Scottie Barnes, give them their own pick back along with one of the Atlanta picks and our own 2025 first rounder. They've already traded out Siakam and Anunuboy, so they might accept the deal if the picks were this attractive. If we have to add our own 2028 pick as well, you do it for Scottie Barnes.

Then my lineup is

Starters:
Coby White
Devin Vassell
Scottie Barnes
Jeremy Sochan
Victor Wembanyama

Bench:
Keldon Johnson
#3 pick (preferably a wing or a big)
Tre Jones
Collins....


This lets us have our own top 3 pick for this year and hold on to the Atlanta pick swap coming in 2026.

That team would defend and I think would win enough games to be a threat in the west. The best part being that you pick up White and Barnes that you know are good/great NBA players in exchange for shipping out 6-7 first round picks that are mostly crap shoots.

White is controlled at about 10 million per year for the next two years, you'd extend Scottie Barnes, and you still have 2 years before you have to extend Wemby so we still maintain some payroll flexibility as well.

Is it doable... who knows, but those are the kind of players I want on the Spurs. Not Trae Young

Why not go offer Jrue a 4/120 contract if he declines his PO? Or wait a year and go hard after Derrick. Or hell, offer Atlanta a much lesser package than they'd ask for Trae and bring DJ back. For the record I'm not against a Trae trade if our FO doesn't overpay, but I also don't know if we truly need a traditional PG. I kind of want the ball in Vic's hands most of the time, he's shown that he has incredible vision for his age already. Why not let him be Jokic/Giannis and force the other teams rim protector to come meet him on the perimeter as he sets the offense up? We mostly need a guy who can bring the ball up, not eff up basic passes to the guy with an 8 foot wingspan, and play well off Vic as the primary creator.

TheNotoriousP.I.P. said:

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Why not go offer Jrue a 4/120 contract if he declines his PO?

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I'm a huge Jrue fan. But the man turns 34 during the Finals. He's still solid, but he's not on the same timeline.

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Or wait a year and go hard after Derrick.

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Derrick turns 30 this summer and 31 next summer. So tank wemby's first two years, then bring in a 31yo PG?

Bad timeline, imo.

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Or hell, offer Atlanta a much lesser package than they'd ask for Trae and bring DJ back.

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I think DJ could be had for two firsts, but I don't think he is the player we want. His defense isn't good like it was here and I don't think he is a difference maker. I'd rather offer a little more and get a top 10 offensive player in the NBA than DJ.

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For the record I'm not against a Trae trade if our FO doesn't overpay, but I also don't know if we truly need a traditional PG. I kind of want the ball in Vic's hands most of the time, he's shown that he has incredible vision for his age already. Why not let him be Jokic/Giannis and force the other teams rim protector to come meet him on the perimeter as he sets the offense up?

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Giannis won with Jrue at PG and Jokic won with Murray at PG. I think you ideally want two guys capable of being a primary playmaker to win a title and Wemby+Trae gives you that. Jokic/Murray, Giannis/Jrue (now Lilliard), Tatum/Jrue, LeBron/Wade, LeBron/Kyrie, SGA/Giddey, Mitchel/Garland, Embiid/Maxey, Kyrie/Luka, etc.

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We mostly need a guy who can bring the ball up, not eff up basic passes to the guy with an 8 foot wingspan, and play well off Vic as the primary creator.

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We have that with Tre Jones, but he isn't good enough, clearly.

And we could have two of the ten best offensive players in the NBA with Wemby and Trae, and that completely changes all the defense planning for other teams, especially when the two best players are so different. For now, they can just collapse on Wemby and we don't have a lot of players that can make them really pay.

But imagine Wemby getting position off ball while Sochan/Trae run the PnR and then Trae cuts and has Sochan rolling and Wemby just being up in position. How do you defend that? Especially if you can have two deadly D&3 guys on the perimeter such as Caruso and Grayson Allen (ideally)?

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I've not gone down the rabbit hole of the formulas here, but if you get picked on all game, wouldn't that statistically increase the amount of chances you have for deflections? I'd be curious if someone (with way more time than I have) tracks this. Yes he may rate as average in number of deflections, but maybe that's because he has twice the opportunities of an elite defender like Thybulle or Caruso. Kind of the, even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes theory.

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But when you have Caruso or Thybulle, they are actively trying to be on the playmaker the entire game, so I don't know that that is true. And also look at the other PGs and you will see most have lower deflections.

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I also get that he's small, but to essentially not ever rebound the ball is concerning. Even more concerning because when he first entered the league he was averaging around 4 rebounds a game, and now he's down to 2.7 despite playing more minutes. Among players averaging 30 minutes a game, he has the lowest RPG. There are other small guys in the NBA, and again he's the worst in the league. (Even old Steph Curry is still at 4 RPG) To me that's an effort thing.

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I do not care at all about rebounding there. I don't think you want your 6' 178lb PG crashing the defensive glass. His job is to release and start the break. It is just like the Spurs don't do well in offensive rebounding, but that is due to team function - Pop doesn't want them crashing the glass, but to be preventing the fast break.

Same thing with steals, imo. In 2014, the Spurs were 3rd in defense but 23rd in steals, despite having Duncan, Kawhi, Green. Bowen was never high on steals. Pop prefers us to get stops and contest shots than gambling on steals (like a guy like Nash or Iverson.)

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He also leads the league in turnovers. Yes he handles the ball a lot and has a high usage rate, but so do other guys and he leads the league. (Led the league last year as well)

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Yeah, I definitely don't like his high turnover rate or a lot of his shot selection. He is 13th in turnover %, right behind Wemby. Ideally, with better coaching, gameplanning, and teammates, both the turnover and shot selection will improve. We've seen Haliburton's consistently improve under Carlisle.

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Final point here, the Spurs are definitely a better team with Trae Young than without him, he'd force some dilemmas with the defense for sure, and should help run the pick and roll with Wemby. I do not dispute this. However, the question is how much better are the Spurs, and is the cost worth the upgrade?

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I don't know how you quantify the impact of having two top-10 offensive players in the NBA on one team. It isn't often that you see a team with that type of talent. Kobe/Shaq. Curry/Durant. Magic/Kareem. Moses/DrJ. Maybe LeBron/Kyrie, though Kyrie was really young there, the talent was evident. Maybe LeBron/AD. Maybe LeBron/Wade.

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For me, this is an easy question, they would not be so much improved as to make it the kind of no brainer move that you make when you push your chips in. Sure if Atlanta is just giving him away, you take him. But if the cost is those Atlanta picks + other assets, I don't think it moves the needle enough to do it.

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Depends what the other assets are. IDGAF about Branham or Wesley, especially if you are getting Trae, because neither would see the floor again. I'd rather keep Wesley, but if we are picking two, Trae+Tre is my choice over Trae+Wesley.

With Trae, Atlanta is probably a 10-15th draft pick every year. Without him, they are the Pistons. If our trade is Graham, Branham, Wesley, a pick swap in 2024, and three ATL picks (probably all 10-15) you do that all day long. It is a no brainer. You still have all your own picks, the Toronto, Charlotte, and Chicago picks, and the Dallas and Boston swaps. If they want Vassell or Sochan and more picks, I probably say no. We have all the leverage, especially if Trae wants to play in San Antonio.

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For me, I'd be checking on all of the teams that might have an interest in tanking and seeing if I could pull the few good players they do have in exchange for draft capital. For instance, I wish we'd kick the tires on Coby White in Chicago. Offer them their own pick back plus the Charlotte pick and one of the Atlanta picks for him. Take back a bad contract (Vucevic maybe) as well if needed to help clear their books. That solves the PG problem immediately and Chicago can start tanking for real and sell off the rest of their assets.

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I don't think Chicago wants to move White, I think they want to build around him, and I wouldn't be surprised if they sell off and tank this summer. They should have taken what they could get on DD, but I don't think they should take back salary. White has even less deflections and less turnovers than Trae. He's a good rebounder and that is the only good thing on his Crafted Defense.

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Then I'd talk to Toronto about Scottie Barnes, give them their own pick back along with one of the Atlanta picks and our own 2025 first rounder. They've already traded out Siakam and Anunuboy, so they might accept the deal if the picks were this attractive. If we have to add our own 2028 pick as well, you do it for Scottie Barnes.

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Toronto tells you to GFY. They traded away everyone else to build around Barnes. I would love Scottie on this team, but zero chance Toronto does it. They don't want to tank and bottom out and Barnes is a guy they can build around.

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Then my lineup is

Starters:
Coby White
Devin Vassell
Scottie Barnes
Jeremy Sochan
Victor Wembanyama

Bench:
Keldon Johnson
#3 pick (preferably a wing or a big)
Tre Jones
Collins....

This lets us have our own top 3 pick for this year and hold on to the Atlanta pick swap coming in 2026.

That team would defend and I think would win enough games to be a threat in the west. The best part being that you pick up White and Barnes that you know are good/great NBA players in exchange for shipping out 6-7 first round picks that are mostly crap shoots.

White is controlled at about 10 million per year for the next two years, you'd extend Scottie Barnes, and you still have 2 years before you have to extend Wemby so we still maintain some payroll flexibility as well.

Is it doable... who knows, but those are the kind of players I want on the Spurs. Not Trae Young

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Not possible at all. You are trying to give away peanuts for the foundational pieces of a rebuilding team. They are telling you no.

That is not even remotely doable.

If I am going to make up trades that I think are realistic and not foundational pieces of a rebuild:

* Trae for 2024 pick swap with ATL, 25/26/27 picks, Branham, Graham, Wesley
* Caruso for 2025 Chicago pick and two seconds
* Herb Jones for Tre Jones, 2024 Toronto pick, two seconds (NOLA has glut of wings, needs PG help)
* Sign Grayson Allen and Kyle Anderson with MLE/Room exceptions
* Talk to Orlando about Jonathan Issac. Issac for Collins and seconds.
* Pick Ryan Dunn with ATL pick


Wemby / Barlow / Bassey
Sochan / SloMo / Issac
Herb Jones / Keldon / Ryan Dunn
Vassell / Grayson Allen / Cissoko
Trae Young / Caruso

We now have three elite wing/guard defenders, two of the ten best offensive players in the NBA, improved passing, and multiple legit 3pt threats in Sochan, Jones, Vassell, Allen, Caruso, Young.

I don't think that's entirely realistic either. And I still think we need better rim protection outside of Wemby.

Everybody has a price, I want Scottie Barnes, he's a good fit next to Wemby in my opinion.

Toronto can tell us to GTFO, but their pick (#7 this year) plus two unprotected 1sts is a good return considering their situation.

They weren't winning with Siakam, Barnes and Anunuboy who are all good players, so they need to really think hard about their path back to relevancy. Now all they have is Barnes and no 1st round pick this year (or next) unless they tank. You wouldn't give up Barnes for 3-4 unprotected 1sts in this situation?

Barnes can play hardball and try and force a trade if they are this bad again next year. So no matter how much they would like to say GTFO, Toronto has some hard realities on the horizon. If we keep their pick this year, realistically they aren't improving their team next year since FAs don't sign with them usually.

The longer they stay bad the more likely they lose Barnes for even less. They should at least listen if we put our picks on the table.

I think you're putting a little too much emphasis on the timeline. Regardless of who we bring in, we are going to have to reset the team in a few years. Trae is going to be 26 by the time he theoretically gets to San Antonio; as a small guard with no defense, I wouldn't comfortably project him to be a high impact player past age 32/33. When Denver saw how special Jokic was, they brought in an aging Paul Millsap and it worked out pretty well for them. We are potentially going to be able to draft some top end guys this year and next year with the picks that we have, we don't necessarily need to hit the fast forward button quite that aggressively. Just adding a Jrue-type vet should get us in the playoff race next year with internal improvements and maybe a couple of other moves for key rotation players (maybe kick the tires on Bruce Brown for instance).

AggieEP said:

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Everybody has a price, I want Scottie Barnes, he's a good fit next to Wemby in my opinion.

Toronto can tell us to GTFO, but their pick (#7 this year) plus two unprotected 1sts is a good return considering their situation.

They weren't winning with Siakam, Barnes and Anunuboy who are all good players, so they need to really think hard about their path back to relevancy. Now all they have is Barnes and no 1st round pick this year (or next) unless they tank. You wouldn't give up Barnes for 3-4 unprotected 1sts in this situation?

Barnes can play hardball and try and force a trade if they are this bad again next year. So no matter how much they would like to say GTFO, Toronto has some hard realities on the horizon. If we keep their pick this year, realistically they aren't improving their team next year since FAs don't sign with them usually.

The longer they stay bad the more likely they lose Barnes for even less. They should at least listen if we put our picks on the table.

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Why would Barnes play hardball 3 months after they blew up the team to build around him? He's 22 and this is his third season and first season as a 20ppg player.

I've never seen anything to suggest he isn't happy in Toronto

NO question he would be a great fit on the Spurs with Sochan and Wemby, but I also don't see any reason why Toronto would trade him this summer unless you included Wemby.

3-4 unprotected firsts - depends what the firsts are. Are we talking about the Spurs 1st in 24, 26, 28, and 30? Nope, I wouldnt do that if I am Toronto. That's probably one great pick in a bad draft, and three 25-30 picks.


Toronto blew it up a month ago to build around Barnes. They aren't going to give up after half a season.

How are they going to build around Barnes though?

No high 1st this year possibly, and free agents don't sign there. They really only have spares to try and trade as well now, so how do they reload?

24-25 season will be a tank season and then they get a high 1st round pick. At that point Barnes will have finished his 4th year there and they'd be adding one rookie to play with him. (They will have 2 picks in the 20s from the Siakam trade this year that I doubt will be high impact)

Again, they gave up on and shipped Siakam and Anunuboy out, no way will one rookie make them better than this year's team. So 25-26 season is also mostly a tank fest as well.

Now Scottie is 5 years in. I don't think he cares that they are "building around him" if that means 3 more years of losing.

We give them their own pick back (7 this year) plus two of the Hawks picks that seem likely to be lottery picks and then one of our own picks. That gives them likely 3 extra lottery picks to try and hit on.

It's not that I think Toronto has any motivation to move Barnes, but they might want to listen because it's hard to see the timeline working out to compete while he's there. In a way, it's kind of like us and Dejounte, only reason we traded him was to bottom out and fully rebuild. He was a good player for us and we shipped him out for future assets because we knew we weren't really competing for the next 2 years. That trade turned into Wemby plus the Hawks picks. The Raptors would be hoping to similarly bottom out and then use the warchest of picks to bounce back quickly.

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I think you're putting a little too much emphasis on the timeline. Regardless of who we bring in, we are going to have to reset the team in a few years.

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Disagree. And I sure don't agree with giving a 34yo point guard 4y120M.

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Trae is going to be 26 by the time he theoretically gets to San Antonio; as a small guard with no defense, I wouldn't comfortably project him to be a high impact player past age 32/33.

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Trae is never in trouble off the court, and isn't injury prone. Tony started to fall off at 33, so I can agree that that could be a limit for Trae, but I think Trae has a better shot and better handles, and might still have more effectiveness later in his career. I think 33/34 is probably about right. That's when Tony and Iverson both became less effective.

Steph was very injury prone and is having a great year this year at 35, even after multiple serious injuries in his career.

So if he's a good player until 33 then tails off, getting him at 26 (he turns 26 during training camp next season) gives us 7 great seasons of two top 10 offensive players in the NBA in an offense-dominated league. I'll gladly take that.

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When Denver saw how special Jokic was, they brought in an aging Paul Millsap and it worked out pretty well for them

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I have no clue where you are doing with this. Denver had one season with >48 wins with Millsap. They won the titles a couple years after Millsap was gone.

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We are potentially going to be able to draft some top end guys this year and next year with the picks that we have, we don't necessarily need to hit the fast forward button quite that aggressively.

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It is doubtful that anyone in this class is a 25p10a player. And if they are, they likely won't be for several years. PG is easily the hardest position to be great at in the NBA and most point guards take several years to develop. Look at Coby White. This is his 5th year and is putting up 19.6 and 5.3 in 36mpg.

If you look at the top 25 in the NBA in Assists this year (that's the cut off for 6apg) only three of those players had 6apg as a rookie. Luka, Trae, and Dame. Everyone else, including LeBron, took time to develop or refine.

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Just adding a Jrue-type vet should get us in the playoff race next year with internal improvements and maybe a couple of other moves for key rotation players (maybe kick the tires on Bruce Brown for instance).

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That is one of my big things - I think we need a glue guy veteran. I liked Bruce Brown, but not at 22M that Indiana gave him. That's why my trade above, I suggested Caruso. He's that guy. Hardnosed defense, smart plays on offense. Does exactly what you need him to do. Same thing we did when we brought in Mario Elie, Jerome Kersey and Steve Kerr in 1999. I think Jrue would be a great guy for a year or two. But it is interesting to me you talk bad about Trae being not good at 33 then advocate giving 34 year old Jrue a 4 year guaranteed contract. If we were talking about the 29yo Jrue that New Orleans traded, I'd be all about that. Maybe FVV is a good comparison to that player now, and he is a much less efficient scorer. But FVV has played that role really well for Houston. I think Jamal Murray would probably be the closest comparison now, but he is hurt ALL THE TIME. But he's a 20/7/4 guy with great shooting and good defense. But Denver trading him would also close their window, IMO. Derrick White would also work, but again, Boston traded away Smart and Brogdon to build the backcourt around White and Jrue. They aren't going to hurt their title chances by trading White back.

The PG I would probably talk to after Trae is Darius Garland, but he actually isn't much bigger than Trae and because Cleveland is already good, you are going to have to include someone like Devin to play SG next to Dono's PG. I think Garland is probably 80% of the offensive talent that Trae is, but is a better defender and would be more expensive to acquire.

AggieEP said:

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How are they going to build around Barnes though?

No high 1st this year possibly, and free agents don't sign there. They really only have spares to try and trade as well now, so how do they reload?

24-25 season will be a tank season and then they get a high 1st round pick. At that point Barnes will have finished his 4th year there and they'd be adding one rookie to play with him. (They will have 2 picks in the 20s from the Siakam trade this year that I doubt will be high impact)

Again, they gave up on and shipped Siakam and Anunuboy out, no way will one rookie make them better than this year's team. So 25-26 season is also mostly a tank fest as well.

Now Scottie is 5 years in. I don't think he cares that they are "building around him" if that means 3 more years of losing.

We give them their own pick back (7 this year) plus two of the Hawks picks that seem likely to be lottery picks and then one of our own picks. That gives them likely 3 extra lottery picks to try and hit on.

It's not that I think Toronto has any motivation to move Barnes, but they might want to listen because it's hard to see the timeline working out to compete while he's there. In a way, it's kind of like us and Dejounte, only reason we traded him was to bottom out and fully rebuild. He was a good player for us and we shipped him out for future assets because we knew we weren't really competing for the next 2 years. That trade turned into Wemby plus the Hawks picks. The Raptors would be hoping to similarly bottom out and then use the warchest of picks to bounce back quickly.

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Toronto owes us 1 pick and has three picks coming in from Indiana in addition to all of their own. Right now, they have about a 50% chance to keep their own pick and get Indiana's pick this year. Indiana's is 17th right now.

Will they build another Championship? No clue. But they sure as hell aren't giving up 2 months into a multi-year rebuild.

I just don't think they are going to trade a 22yo all-star that they are planning to build the team around, before they even have one off-season of building the team. They got rid of a ton of dead weight and will likely work to facilitate trades with their cap space.

C: Poeltl 28yo / Boucher 31yo
PF: Barnes 22yo / McDaniels 26yo
SF: RJ Barrett 23yo / Agbaji 23yo
SG: Brown 27yo / Dick 20yo
PG: Quickley 24yo

That's all they have under contract next year (well Quickley is a RFA they are obviously keeping) and they have a team option on Bruce Brown. Boucher and McDaniels are final year next year.

They have a lot of flexibility, some promising young players and extreme amounts of cap flexibility. They are in no need to hit the hard reset, especially not dumping their only star player before even attempting to rebuild around him. There just isn't pressure there to give up.

Trae Young is on pace to average 25+ PPG, 9+ APG and 2+ 3PG for the 5th time in his career.

Since 1979-80, no other player has more than 1 such season. pic.twitter.com/FEucx5OjTQ

— NBA (@NBA) February 18, 2024

https://news4sanantonio.com/sports/hawks-trae-young-says-hes-been-a-spurs-tony-parker-fan

"I've always been a fan of the Spurs organization, just knowing how many championships they have won here," Young said following the final regular season Spurs-Hawks match in San Antonio.

"I was a big Tony Parker fan growing up," Young said.

Oops, wrong thread...

Where I was going with the Millsap thing is that right now we just need to get our guys to where they can play in some playoff series. Denver went from below .500 to a winning team after the Millsap deal. Millsap was hurt that first year but after that Denver went to the second round, third round, and second round on the last 3 years of his contract, with Millsap starting in those first two runs until they brought in Gordon.

My point was more that we don't have to push our chips all in just yet, we could press the gas a little more gently by bringing in a sub all star vet like Jrue to help us simply get these youngsters to the playoff stage (just like bringing in Millsap helped Denver get there). Then from there we should be able to see what kind of moves we need to make to be a true title contender while also getting our guys exposure to those kinds of battles. Denver ended up seeing that Jokic, Murray, and MPJ were their guys but Gary Harris, Monte Morris, and Will Barton weren't crucial and could be traded to improve the roster. Which was significant because Gary Harris was a big piece on that team.

I don't think it's the worst idea in the world to overpay in FA for battle tested, starting caliber, declining vets. Then we can keep our powder dry for future big moves after we've seen what weaknesses we have once in the playoffs, and we know who to keep and who isn't essential.

Yeah, I definitely can understand that and think they do need some veteran leadership. But at the same time, Trae led a ****ty Hawks team to the ECF. Even if it was a fluke, he still had some amazing games and put up 29/11/2 against Philly and ripped Ben Simmons' soul and career right out of his body.

Not a ton of guys out there, but I think Kentavious Caldwell-Pope could be one. He's obviously a role player, not like Millsap, but he has two rings with two teams and played an important role on both.


Mike Conley is another guy I have always liked, but he is 36.

Kevin Love is out there as a backup big on a small contract. My guess is he would pick a team with a better shot at a ring.

Nic Batum. Not a ton of playoff experience, but tons of French experience.

I've also mentioned that I like Caruso, Grayson Allen, and Kyle Anderson. All bring a high BBIQ, energy and toughness.

Enzo The Baker said:

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If we don't make a trade for Trae this offseason and want to build in the draft, I wouldn't mind offering jrue a big two-year contract but nothing beyond that. He'd be a great leader on that end for us.

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I'd rather do that than toss all our assets to Atlanta for Trae.

FTAG 2000 said:

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Enzo The Baker said:

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If we don't make a trade for Trae this offseason and want to build in the draft, I wouldn't mind offering jrue a big two-year contract but nothing beyond that. He'd be a great leader on that end for us.

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I'd rather do that than toss all our assets to Atlanta for Trae.

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Not a single person is in favor of dumping all our assets for Trae

I think that's the main difference in the way some of us see the situation and you see the situation. Tossing 3/4 picks for Trae is.... steep in my opinion. I would consider that tossing "all of our additional assets" that we've worked to gather.

As I've said from the beginning, if the cost was one of their picks back, plus the Chicago pick, then sure, why not.

If the cost is anything more than that, I have serious questions about the move.

I know you are enamored with Trae statistically on offense, but the fact that he is potentially available in a trade tells you something important about his true value to his own team.

I like you Guitar, but in some ways you are kind of like the board bully on here, some of the rest of us also have valid sports opinions, and we're all just big fans of the Spurs. You did something similar to this last year when you became super enamored with Scoot Henderson, I and others pointed out shortcomings in his game (I said he was just a rando dude who would try and get his on offense) and you shouted us down. Now look at Scoot one year in, he has the lowest FG% in the entire NBA and hasn't been able to get himself consistently on the court for a bad team. So perhaps cut some of us some slack and admit that it's ok for us to have differing opinions.

Trae probably makes the Spurs better, maybe even drastically, but it's a fact that he also comes with some huge uncertainties with the shortcomings of his game and the fact that he instantly eats up a supermax slot on our roster. With the new rules, you can basically have 2 of those guys on your team. So that means we'd have Trae and Wemby and that's who we're going to ride or die with.

I'm just not ready to ride or die with that pairing unless the cost to acquire is just really low.

Also, while there are other suitors out there for Trae, I do question how serious they could be. As long as the Lakers have Bron and Brow, it's hard to finish out the team around them if they add Trae. Other fits are also problematic. I think if the Spurs are patient, maybe this does get done for a reduced price and maybe it works out.

Quote:

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I think that's the main difference in the way some of us see the situation and you see the situation. Tossing 3/4 picks for Trae is.... steep in my opinion. I would consider that tossing "all of our additional assets" that we've worked to gather.

As I've said from the beginning, if the cost was one of their picks back, plus the Chicago pick, then sure, why not.


If the cost is anything more than that, I have serious questions about the move.

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My proposal was Devonte Graham, Branham, Wesley, swap picks in 2024, give them their two firsts back and give them their swap back. Basically two firsts, two swaps, and two young players that may or may not do anything notable in the NBA.

I don't think two picks and two swaps and Branham and Wesley is a huge depletion of assets for an All-NBA player that is probably a top ten offensive talent.

If we could get him for the top-10 protected Chicago pick and the 2025 ATL pick, I'd obviously be all for that, but I don't think that is realistic for an All-NBA player. We got more for Kawhi than that and Kawhi tanked his value as much as he could.

Quote:

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I know you are enamored with Trae statistically on offense, but the fact that he is potentially available in a trade tells you something important about his true value to his own team.

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It is like when we had Derrick White and DJM. Both are valuable players, but we could not get a high seed with them and a bunch of spares. We had to move off and get what we could to rebuild. Trae is better than both players, but Atlanta has a historically bad front office. No All-NBA player can take a team to the Finals by themselves. You need a well built team around them and Atlanta has sucked so bad on defense for a long time, and not just because of Trae - because no one on that team can stop anyone.

He's potentially available in a trade because Atlanta needs to do what the DD/White/DJM Spurs needed to do - tear it down, rebuild from the ground up. They have too many negative assets.

Quote:

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I like you Guitar, but in some ways you are kind of like the board bully on here, some of the rest of us also have valid sports opinions, and we're all just big fans of the Spurs.

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Sorry you feel that way, that is certainly not my intention. I don't think your or anyone else's opinion is invalid just because I disagree. I think there is a ton of validity to the idea that you can't win with Trae because of his defense. I think that Wemby+two or three good to great perimeter defenders could mitigate the negative effects of his defense, just like Kawhi/Green or Manu/Bowen did with Parker. But we currently don't have those players.

Quote:

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You did something similar to this last year when you became super enamored with Scoot Henderson, I and others pointed out shortcomings in his game (I said he was just a rando dude who would try and get his on offense) and you shouted us down. Now look at Scoot one year in, he has the lowest FG% in the entire NBA and hasn't been able to get himself consistently on the court for a bad team. So perhaps cut some of us some slack and admit that it's ok for us to have differing opinions.

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I still think Scoot is going to be a good to great NBA player. Like I said a few posts back, PG usually take longer to develop and it is rare that a PG comes into the league at 19 and is instantly great like Luka or Trae. Nash didn't average double digits in scoring or 6+ assists until his 5th season, though he was always a better shooter than Scoot. Kidd was good as a rookie, but he really took the leap his 5th season. Coby White is making that jump this year - his 5th season.

Quote:

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Trae probably makes the Spurs better, maybe even drastically, but it's a fact that he also comes with some huge uncertainties with the shortcomings of his game and the fact that he instantly eats up a supermax slot on our roster. With the new rules, you can basically have 2 of those guys on your team. So that means we'd have Trae and Wemby and that's who we're going to ride or die with.


I'm just not ready to ride or die with that pairing unless the cost to acquire is just really low.

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Totally understandable. Because of his flaws, I don't think that Trae is worth the Supermax he got.

The problem is acquiring max players. TheMarcus is the only player anywhere remotely close to the Max that we have ever acquired that we didn't draft. Maybe Wemby has the gravity to bring in All-NBA players that want to play with him, but we struggled with that with the GOATPF.

Additionally, we see how much better Wemby plays with Tre - who is basically a very good backup PG and nothing more. No shot, undersized, etc.

If we decide to keep the assets and use the draft picks, how long will that draft pick take to develop? Nikola Topic may be the best PG in the draft and he has missed 6 weeks and counting due to injury this year. He turns 19 in August. Do we have the patience to wait 3-5 years for him to be a really effective PG? You remember in Parker's 2nd season he was being benched for Speedy Claxton in crunch time in the playoffs, right?

Quote:

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Also, while there are other suitors out there for Trae, I do question how serious they could be. As long as the Lakers have Bron and Brow, it's hard to finish out the team around them if they add Trae. Other fits are also problematic. I think if the Spurs are patient, maybe this does get done for a reduced price and maybe it works out.

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Any player that isn't well rounded makes the fit more difficult. It would be problematic for us, unless we can get guys at wing that can pick up the perimeter defense. Or Vassell needs to take a major leap there. And maybe Devin does if he doesn't have to work as hard on offense to get his shots as he does now. We've all seen Kobe and LeBron relax on defense so that they could put in more effort on offense. Kobe used to guard Bowen instead of Ginobili for most of the game for that reason.

I agree, we need to make more moves if we bring in Trae, and we shouldn't waste all our assets. If we were able to do my proposed trade (Graham, Branham, Wesley, 24 swap, 25 & 27 ATL picks, 26 ATL Swap) we still have the following assets:

* 24 ATL pick
* 24 TOR pick
* 25 SAS Pick
* 25 CHI Pick
* 25 CHA pick
* 26 SAS Pick
* 27 SAS Pick
* 28 SAS or BOS Pick (Spurs get best)
* 29 SAS Pick
* 30 SAS or DAL pick (Spurs get best)
* 31 SAS pick
* a couple dozen second rounders
* Wemby
* Keldon
* Sochan
* Vassell
* Barlow
* Javtokas
* Bassey
* Julian
* Tre


Looking at what the Hawks have been the last 3 seasons, what are those ATL picks worth as it stands? About 12th - 20th. So our value on those picks if they keep Trae is about 15th, give or take. You can obviously find some nice value there, but it is unlikely to turn into Cooper Flagg.

I would trade two mid-1st round picks and two swaps for any under-28 All-NBA player in the league. There is the potential that those picks could become more valuable. There is also the potential that they become less valuable. Their last 3 picks were 15, 16, 20. This year they have a 20% chance at 1-4 and a 80% chance at 9-12.

Even with our very good draft historical record, outside our #1 picks, we have only drafted 3 players that became All-NBA for us in the 30 years Pop has been here at GM or Coach. Tony, Manu, Kawhi. We have only acquired one other player that made All-NBA for us - TheMarcus.

We have shown to be extraordinarily good at finding talent and role players that compliment our stars. So I trust that. But getting a top player in the NBA here without the #1 pick is extremely hard. That is why I am on board with using two picks and two swaps for Trae. Acquiring high end talent is very difficult and even though we are good at the draft, we have a lot of wasted picks there, too. If you go back a couple weeks, I had the same basic opinion on Trae you did - the defense mitigates the offense. But I don't think Devin or Jeremy will become All-NBA players and we need more help for Wemby. So I agree that Trae leaves a lot to be desired, but I trust the Spurs will be able to find or develop the players to take over the perimeter defense. I think that has been easier than finding or developing a top 10 offensive talent.

To me, the best thing that could possibly happen for the Spurs is if Atlanta goes all in on DJ. That's going to result in all 3 of those picks being in the lottery with the rest of the talent they have on that roster and the lack of flexibility they have to bring in any other difference makers. Then we can start adding pieces to try and win starting next year while still having a pipeline of lottery talent coming in.

TheNotoriousP.I.P. said:

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To me, the best thing that could possibly happen for the Spurs is if Atlanta goes all in on DJ. That's going to result in all 3 of those picks being in the lottery with the rest of the talent they have on that roster and the lack of flexibility they have to bring in any other difference makers. Then we can start adding pieces to try and win starting next year while still having a pipeline of lottery talent coming in.

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It is hard to say the Hawks would never do that, because the Hawks keep doing stupid things. My guess is Quin Snyder would prevent them from thinking that Jalen Johnson + DJM is a good team.

Let's say they decide to take a Brooklyn offer and clear off salaries:
Ben Simmons (1y left)
Cam Johnson
Cam Thomas
Dennis Schroeder
Houston 2024
Phoenix 2027 and 2029

for

Capela
Hunter
Young


ATL's team:
Okongwu / ? Draft pick ?
Cam Johnson / Ben Simmons
Jalen Johnson / Bogi
Cam Thomas / Kobe Bufkin
DJM / Schroeder

Maybe that is improved, but I don't think that is a good team. And Brooklyn still sucks, so I dont know if they do it.


If Utah does it, maybe they add more picks, but don't take back Capela/Hunter and it is Collin Sexton, Taylor Hendricks, Jordan Clarkson and picks for Trae. That's surefire lottery for us.

If they arent getting thier picks back, they need young talent.

Orlando maybe gives Suggs and Anthony Black? ATL is still a lottery team.


The one that makes the most sense to me is to trade Trae for CJ McCollum and picks. CJ is 32, so that isn't a long term deal, but he fits well next to DJM because he can play off-ball and Trae and DJM are both primarily on-ball players. But still, ATL is an awful defensive team. But NOLA is a scary team with Jonas/Zion/Herb/Ingram/Trae.

Guitarsoup said:

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LeBron just created new phrase attached to the Spurs' greatest player, saying at his All-Star pregame presser that people have asked him, "Will you take the farewell tour or Tim Duncan it?"

— Tom Orsborn (@tom_orsborn) February 18, 2024

There is absolutely zero chance that LeBron doesn't milk his last season for every single thing he can.

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I fully expect him to take bows at every city, say thank you to all "of the amazing fans" and to call himself the goat at every chance he gets

Clear we need to focus the offense around Collins

Each team's most productive action so far this season. pic.twitter.com/xfUK0I5OlX

— Todd Whitehead (@CrumpledJumper) February 19, 2024