When you start to think of selling EV cars as another form of buying emission credits, it makes sense. They build them, so that they get the emission credits. The gas car buyers are paying for it. EV car offsets like 6 gas cars based on a random govt rule. I would also assume they get the emission credit offset by just building them, they probably don't even need to sell them.

Ag with kids said:

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Medaggie said:

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I am not arguing right or wrong. But when the biggest car market makes a change then the car makers either make the change or risk bankruptcy. Many European countries following suit.

If you sell blue widgets and your biggest buyer wants a red widget, are you going to make red widgets? Of course you are or risk profit/bankruptcy.

its basic economics

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US car makers exported 155K vehicles to China...the China market doesn't really drive much in the US. They're the largest market because they sell a lot of Chinese cars to Chinese people.

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The vehicles are manufactured and sold in China as joint ventures with Chinese manufacturers. Manufacturers that are themselves joint ventures between the companies and the Chinese government. Meaning that your favorite American car brands are in partnerships with the Chinese government.

These arrangements are mandated by the Chinese government for foreign auto brands, with the lone exclusion being Tesla, which is allowed to operate as a wholly independent company within China, at least they were the lone exclusion when they built their factory in 2021. I doubt there has been any movement to allow any others as that same level autonomy.

China represents a fairly significant portion of their financials, and is generally the second largest auto market for U.S. brands behind the United States. Whether the loss of that business would lead to their collapse or not, I doubt it, because their remaining business is smaller than the business they've already lost in the country since 2016 as their domestic manufacturers have increased production/quality, but it definitely won't help. As their domestic popularity has shrunk they have moved towards exporting vehicles. Ford as an example went from selling more than 800,000 vehicles in China in 2016 to the low 200,000 recently.


Ford -> Jiangling Motors
GM -> SAIC
Stellantis -> Dongfeng

The problem with China is that they WAY overproduce cars. There were 168 different car manufacturers that made a car last year in China. They are producing almost double the number of cars that they actually need in China because their dumbass government incentivizes them to do so. And all of them are adding EV models out the wazoo and many only do EV.

Thus, all those extra cars are now flooding Europe to the point that Europe and the US (to get ahead of it although there is no way in hell I ever buy a car made in China) are now considering tariffs to try and mitigate the collapse of pricing.

AgLiving06 said:

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I own two fords right now. After the nonsense they pulled during COVID with raising prices and manufacturing a supply issue I can't see myself buying another.

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I mean every manu. did that, not just Ford. Are you never buying another car again?

deddog said:

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I don't get the Tesla hate.
I don't have one yet but they are fun to drive. The biggest problem that Hertz faced was that people aren't used to driving them and there were an unusually high number of front end collisions.
I know a lot of Tesla owners , and not a single one regrets buying one, most love it. And for most, they also have an ICE vehicle.
EV sales are down because the economy is ***** Ford EV sales are down because their EVs are ***** Also, the EV line for Ford is new, so their costs (losses) will lower as time goes by.

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Lot of hate on here with Tesla and Musk bc many are liberals who hate a man who stands up for what he believes in. He can't be controlled so he must be painted in a negative light.

Funny how haters say that EV sales are down but in fact 2024 will have the most EVs sold in any year and will make up close to 20% of all cars sold. Guess what, the last 3 years were full of printed Covid money and people were spending like a drunken sailor. Now, the print machine as broke and they can't afford a new car. Sometimes the EV hating left wingers just can't understand basic ecomonics.

I am not ignoring half the facts. The haters all said demand is down and sales are going down. I just stated a fact that it actually is going up and did not give an opinion on why. Just refuting the false narrative.

deddog said:

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I don't get the Tesla hate.
I don't have one yet but they are fun to drive. The biggest problem that Hertz faced was that people aren't used to driving them and there were an unusually high number of front end collisions.
I know a lot of Tesla owners , and not a single one regrets buying one, most love it. And for most, they also have an ICE vehicle.
EV sales are down because the economy is ***** Ford EV sales are down because their EVs are ***** Also, the EV line for Ford is new, so their costs (losses) will lower as time goes by.

---

I have atleast 10 good friends that own Tesla and only one guy sold his b/c he wanted a Rivian. He got a Rivian b/c he had his name for a CT but didnt want to wait 2 more years.

My family has 1 Ice and 1 Tesla. Three kids coming u to driving age and all 3 will get some form of EVs likely Teslas. Why? I am not a Musk Cult but Telsa by far is the best EV by far for the price. I had a Salad for lunch, barely ate it, went to play an 18 round of golf for 5 hrs, came back in the 85 degree heat, and my salad was still fresh. This is just one of the beauty of having a Tesla.

Haters who never drove the car are just ignorant haters who for some reason do not want to be educated.

You don't understand. And you will probably continue considering anyone who disagrees with you a Tesla hater.

People probably don't hate Tesla. I would probably get one if it fit my needs. Finally, I get tired of the obnoxious and overwhelming hubris of Tesla proponents.

27% off MSRP for this electric.

Thought you might be interested in this CarGurus listing:
New 2023 Ford Mustang Mach-E Premium AWD - $46,530

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/link/372007358

Advertise it for $31,000 and it will fly off the shelf.

Dan Scott said:

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27% off MSRP for this electric.

Thought you might be interested in this CarGurus listing:
New 2023 Ford Mustang Mach-E Premium AWD - $46,530

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/link/372007358

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I find that hilarious, because for so long, EVs were being snapped up for over MSRP as people "had" to have one.

bobbranco said:

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Advertise it for $31,000 and it will fly off the shelf.

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$31k for a new Mustang Mach E.... yeah, I'd write a check for that. Should the battery go tits up outside of warranty, I'd probably have gotten my money's worth by then to trade in for scrap and hopefully for lithium recycle monies.

Medaggie said:

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deddog said:

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I don't get the Tesla hate.
I don't have one yet but they are fun to drive. The biggest problem that Hertz faced was that people aren't used to driving them and there were an unusually high number of front end collisions.
I know a lot of Tesla owners , and not a single one regrets buying one, most love it. And for most, they also have an ICE vehicle.
EV sales are down because the economy is ***** Ford EV sales are down because their EVs are ***** Also, the EV line for Ford is new, so their costs (losses) will lower as time goes by.

---

I have atleast 10 good friends that own Tesla and only one guy sold his b/c he wanted a Rivian. He got a Rivian b/c he had his name for a CT but didnt want to wait 2 more years.

My family has 1 Ice and 1 Tesla. Three kids coming u to driving age and all 3 will get some form of EVs likely Teslas. Why? I am not a Musk Cult but Telsa by far is the best EV by far for the price. I had a Salad for lunch, barely ate it, went to play an 18 round of golf for 5 hrs, came back in the 85 degree heat, and my salad was still fresh. This is just one of the beauty of having a Tesla.

Haters who never drove the car are just ignorant haters who for some reason do not want to be educated.

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Unless there was a fridge in your Tesla (?), it was not "fresh". Leaving food "out" that long is a bad idea.

Also, that has to be the most obsure post regarding the benefits of an EV/Tesla....my salad was still fresh after playing golf...reaching pretty hard here

Medaggie said:

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deddog said:

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I don't get the Tesla hate.
I don't have one yet but they are fun to drive. The biggest problem that Hertz faced was that people aren't used to driving them and there were an unusually high number of front end collisions.
I know a lot of Tesla owners , and not a single one regrets buying one, most love it. And for most, they also have an ICE vehicle.
EV sales are down because the economy is ***** Ford EV sales are down because their EVs are ***** Also, the EV line for Ford is new, so their costs (losses) will lower as time goes by.

---

I have atleast 10 good friends that own Tesla and only one guy sold his b/c he wanted a Rivian. He got a Rivian b/c he had his name for a CT but didnt want to wait 2 more years.

My family has 1 Ice and 1 Tesla. Three kids coming u to driving age and all 3 will get some form of EVs likely Teslas. Why? I am not a Musk Cult but Telsa by far is the best EV by far for the price. I had a Salad for lunch, barely ate it, went to play an 18 round of golf for 5 hrs, came back in the 85 degree heat, and my salad was still fresh. This is just one of the beauty of having a Tesla.

Haters who never drove the car are just ignorant haters who for some reason do not want to be educated.

---

Ahh, so it is okay for you to name call and talk down to people, but on another post you say you would never name call and only want to have healthy discussions. Which is it?. Before you call me uneducated, I have a fleet of EVs for work I manage/drive along with my company truck is an EV. Would not buy with my own money.

Hoyt Ag said:

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Medaggie said:

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deddog said:

---

I don't get the Tesla hate.
I don't have one yet but they are fun to drive. The biggest problem that Hertz faced was that people aren't used to driving them and there were an unusually high number of front end collisions.
I know a lot of Tesla owners , and not a single one regrets buying one, most love it. And for most, they also have an ICE vehicle.
EV sales are down because the economy is ***** Ford EV sales are down because their EVs are ***** Also, the EV line for Ford is new, so their costs (losses) will lower as time goes by.

---

I have atleast 10 good friends that own Tesla and only one guy sold his b/c he wanted a Rivian. He got a Rivian b/c he had his name for a CT but didnt want to wait 2 more years.

My family has 1 Ice and 1 Tesla. Three kids coming u to driving age and all 3 will get some form of EVs likely Teslas. Why? I am not a Musk Cult but Telsa by far is the best EV by far for the price. I had a Salad for lunch, barely ate it, went to play an 18 round of golf for 5 hrs, came back in the 85 degree heat, and my salad was still fresh. This is just one of the beauty of having a Tesla.

Haters who never drove the car are just ignorant haters who for some reason do not want to be educated.

---

Ahh, so it is okay for you to name call and talk down to people, but on another post you say you would never name call and only want to have healthy discussions. Which is it?. Before you call me uneducated, I have a fleet of EVs for work I manage/drive along with my company truck is an EV. Would not buy with my own money.

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Crickets.